5 ms·

We tend to treat our rivals differently from ourselves. So no.

by UIUC_06 4y ago

trasz 4y ago
To the vast majority of the world, including large part of the West, USA is more hostile than China. So, who is “you”?
- UIUC_06 4y ago
  HN is a US-based service. By the way, how is China coping with the vast flood of immigrants trying to move there? Oh, that's right -- there aren't any.
  - trasz 4y ago
    Doesn’t matter where HN is, what matters is where the community lives. And large part lives outside US. On immigration to China: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_China. How’s judiciary in US? Still imprisoning millions of random people for being poor and using them as slave labour?
    - UIUC_06 4y ago
      Your reference is mainly about Chinese nationals returning. 300,000 refugees and 200,000 Africans. Out of over 1 billion. As for "millions of random people for being poor" I think you'll find they were imprisoned for committing crimes, and imprisoned after a jury trial or a plea bargain. As opposed to, I don't know, publishing a newspaper in Hong Kong. Or being Uyghur.
      - trasz 4y ago
        No, they are largely imprisoned for literally nothing, or because of irrelevant formalities: https://twitter.com/equalityalec/status/1562849803297366017 https://twitter.com/equalityalec/status/1562849803297366017. Or https://twitter.com/equalityalec/status/1556292658615750656 https://twitter.com/equalityalec/status/1556292658615750656. Or sometimes just executed: https://twitter.com/phil_lewis_/status/1562837493648871430 https://twitter.com/phil_lewis_/status/1562837493648871430. It does show a bias that at this point should be obvious even to you: you are conditioned to believe US prison victims - I’m guessing including those forced into slavery - deserve it, and to believe those imprisoned for all kinds of felonies in China don’t.
        UIUC_06 4y ago
        What garbage. "Obvious even to you" should be that poor people commit more crimes against other people and against property, the very thing that police are looking for. That's why more of them are locked up. Just for due diligence, I looked at your "references": 1) the first two are from the same person, and are unattributed. So I kind of doubt they're even true. But let's pretend they are: "irrelevant formality" -- going to your probation appointment is pretty important. It's not "nothing." Probation is what they gave you instead of prison. I thought you were in favor of keeping people out of prison. "Dirty urine" probably means they were using drugs. They were let out of prison on the promise that they'd stay off drugs. You think people should use drugs after pledging not to? 2) your third one: One extremely biased side of a case which I assume has other sides, from an extremely biased source. Try to do better. as for the "felonious" people in China: what did the Uyghurs do to deserve it? If you talk to almost any defense attorney (as I've done), they'll freely admit that the vast majority of their clients are guilty.
        trasz 4y ago
        There are stats there, anyone who’s not indoctrinated can see them. One point: >as for the "felonious" people in China: what did the Uyghurs do to deserve it? Terrorism. The difference between Uighurs and the victims of American invasion on Middle East is that Chinese aren’t mass executing them from safe distance like Americans do.
        UIUC_06 4y ago
        I'm done arguing. Go ahead and have the last word if that's important to you.
- BeMoreSpecific 4y ago
  Could you please specify to which part of "the West" is US more hostile than China? Being in/from EU, I think mostly everyone - going by recent public polls - is very happy about our partnership with the US given recent events, and a lot of people are already talking about the Chinese threat too. People here hoped China would take a pro-Ukrainian stance (with the TV presenter dressed in UA colors one time, etc), but that didn't materialize and instead China seems to be cooperating with Russia and people here dislike that a lot. I haven't seen any serious claims (except from the remains of the pro-Putin nutcases, and the amount of these went to like 1/10000 the state before the war) about US hostility for a very long time - most people here think that giving up Afghanistan was a huge mistake. Most of my friends who didn't like the US acting as world police have said they were mistaken.
  - trasz 4y ago
    Lots of people in EU, not to mention worlds two main technology hubs: China and India. Yes, US is the good guys this time, let’s hope it stays like this, but we can’t forget Middle East, same way we can’t forget Trump and resulting deterioration of human rights. China did take anti-Russian stance. Their strategic investments were redirected to other countries. They are complying with embargoes, differently from Germany (https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1563534129534500874 https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1563534129534500874 for a somewhat related story) and some other western countries. Of course you won’t find it mentioned in mainstream western media. Invading Afghanistan was a mistake, but most of all it was a crime against humanity. And the worldview that got US into that - same as worldview of Putin, essentially the belief that their country has god-given right to invade others - is still there. There are more similarities, like protecting their war criminals from justice. Or ideologically-motivated oppression: https://twitter.com/erininthemorn/status/1563223736681381888 https://twitter.com/erininthemorn/status/1563223736681381888.
    - BeMoreSpecific 4y ago
      China or India are not "the West". My local mainstream media is reporting about Germany correctly and in full, btw. But yeah, we like to shit on Germans, other nations might not be alike in that. > but we can’t forget Middle East, same way we can’t forget Trump and resulting deterioration of human rights. Agreed. > same as worldview of Putin, essentially the belief that their country has god-given right to invade others Crimes against humanity are happening in Afghanistan now in much greater number than when the US Army was there. I think that coming to resolve problems such as were/are in Afghanistan is the correct thing to do (not saying the practice worked out perfectly and that there weren't problems). That's absolutely incomparable to Putin who's there to take children, gas/oil fields and access to Black Sea, not to help.

We tend to treat our rivals differently from ourselves. So no.

trasz 4y ago

To the vast majority of the world, including large part of the West, USA is more hostile than China. So, who is “you”?

UIUC_06 4y ago
HN is a US-based service. By the way, how is China coping with the vast flood of immigrants trying to move there? Oh, that's right -- there aren't any.
- trasz 4y ago
  Doesn’t matter where HN is, what matters is where the community lives. And large part lives outside US. On immigration to China: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_China. How’s judiciary in US? Still imprisoning millions of random people for being poor and using them as slave labour?
  - UIUC_06 4y ago
    Your reference is mainly about Chinese nationals returning. 300,000 refugees and 200,000 Africans. Out of over 1 billion. As for "millions of random people for being poor" I think you'll find they were imprisoned for committing crimes, and imprisoned after a jury trial or a plea bargain. As opposed to, I don't know, publishing a newspaper in Hong Kong. Or being Uyghur.
    - trasz 4y ago
      No, they are largely imprisoned for literally nothing, or because of irrelevant formalities: https://twitter.com/equalityalec/status/1562849803297366017 https://twitter.com/equalityalec/status/1562849803297366017. Or https://twitter.com/equalityalec/status/1556292658615750656 https://twitter.com/equalityalec/status/1556292658615750656. Or sometimes just executed: https://twitter.com/phil_lewis_/status/1562837493648871430 https://twitter.com/phil_lewis_/status/1562837493648871430. It does show a bias that at this point should be obvious even to you: you are conditioned to believe US prison victims - I’m guessing including those forced into slavery - deserve it, and to believe those imprisoned for all kinds of felonies in China don’t.
      - UIUC_06 4y ago
        What garbage. "Obvious even to you" should be that poor people commit more crimes against other people and against property, the very thing that police are looking for. That's why more of them are locked up. Just for due diligence, I looked at your "references": 1) the first two are from the same person, and are unattributed. So I kind of doubt they're even true. But let's pretend they are: "irrelevant formality" -- going to your probation appointment is pretty important. It's not "nothing." Probation is what they gave you instead of prison. I thought you were in favor of keeping people out of prison. "Dirty urine" probably means they were using drugs. They were let out of prison on the promise that they'd stay off drugs. You think people should use drugs after pledging not to? 2) your third one: One extremely biased side of a case which I assume has other sides, from an extremely biased source. Try to do better. as for the "felonious" people in China: what did the Uyghurs do to deserve it? If you talk to almost any defense attorney (as I've done), they'll freely admit that the vast majority of their clients are guilty.
        trasz 4y ago
        There are stats there, anyone who’s not indoctrinated can see them. One point: >as for the "felonious" people in China: what did the Uyghurs do to deserve it? Terrorism. The difference between Uighurs and the victims of American invasion on Middle East is that Chinese aren’t mass executing them from safe distance like Americans do.
        UIUC_06 4y ago
        I'm done arguing. Go ahead and have the last word if that's important to you.
BeMoreSpecific 4y ago
Could you please specify to which part of "the West" is US more hostile than China? Being in/from EU, I think mostly everyone - going by recent public polls - is very happy about our partnership with the US given recent events, and a lot of people are already talking about the Chinese threat too. People here hoped China would take a pro-Ukrainian stance (with the TV presenter dressed in UA colors one time, etc), but that didn't materialize and instead China seems to be cooperating with Russia and people here dislike that a lot. I haven't seen any serious claims (except from the remains of the pro-Putin nutcases, and the amount of these went to like 1/10000 the state before the war) about US hostility for a very long time - most people here think that giving up Afghanistan was a huge mistake. Most of my friends who didn't like the US acting as world police have said they were mistaken.
- trasz 4y ago
  Lots of people in EU, not to mention worlds two main technology hubs: China and India. Yes, US is the good guys this time, let’s hope it stays like this, but we can’t forget Middle East, same way we can’t forget Trump and resulting deterioration of human rights. China did take anti-Russian stance. Their strategic investments were redirected to other countries. They are complying with embargoes, differently from Germany (https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1563534129534500874 https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1563534129534500874 for a somewhat related story) and some other western countries. Of course you won’t find it mentioned in mainstream western media. Invading Afghanistan was a mistake, but most of all it was a crime against humanity. And the worldview that got US into that - same as worldview of Putin, essentially the belief that their country has god-given right to invade others - is still there. There are more similarities, like protecting their war criminals from justice. Or ideologically-motivated oppression: https://twitter.com/erininthemorn/status/1563223736681381888 https://twitter.com/erininthemorn/status/1563223736681381888.
  - BeMoreSpecific 4y ago
    China or India are not "the West". My local mainstream media is reporting about Germany correctly and in full, btw. But yeah, we like to shit on Germans, other nations might not be alike in that. > but we can’t forget Middle East, same way we can’t forget Trump and resulting deterioration of human rights. Agreed. > same as worldview of Putin, essentially the belief that their country has god-given right to invade others Crimes against humanity are happening in Afghanistan now in much greater number than when the US Army was there. I think that coming to resolve problems such as were/are in Afghanistan is the correct thing to do (not saying the practice worked out perfectly and that there weren't problems). That's absolutely incomparable to Putin who's there to take children, gas/oil fields and access to Black Sea, not to help.