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They don't ,,have to'' be ready in 2 years. The M2 numbers from the N5P process were underwhelming, I wouldn't replace my M1 MacBook pro without seeing signific

They don't ,,have to'' be ready in 2 years. The M2 numbers from the N5P process were underwhelming, I wouldn't replace my M1 MacBook pro without seeing significantly superior performance / watt numbers, and happy to wait for the N3 process to be in production whatever it takes.

eis 4y ago
Of course nothing forces them to be ready within 2 years but alas, that's what Apple said they'd do. I agree the M2 numbers were not amazing. I guess after the big M1 shock it's hard to follow up with something that comes even close. You can't get similar gains like the transition from x86 to an integrated arm based SOC brought, doubly so when there's no substantial process node improvement (N5 -> N5P is a minor optimization). In the end they mostly bought better performance with a bigger die and increased power consumption. I'm pretty convinced they'll need N3 for the next jump but even that wont be on the level of the Intel -> M1 step. The revolution has happened, now it's all about evolution. BTW if Apple wants to increase the prices of the Pro macbooks like they did with the M2 Air due to inflation then they better justify it with some good gains. The big changes in terms of hardware redesign already happened last time.
- GeekyBear 4y ago
  > I agree the M2 numbers were not amazing. What other CPU core design iteration managed to improve performance while also cutting power draw? Anandtech's deep dive on the performance and efficiency cores used in the A15 and M2: Performance: >In our extensive testing, we’re elated to see that it was actually mostly an efficiency focus this year, with the new performance cores showcasing adequate performance improvements, while at the same time reducing power consumption, as well as significantly improving energy efficiency. Efficiency: >The efficiency cores have also seen massive gains, this time around with Apple mostly investing them back into performance, with the new cores showcasing +23-28% absolute performance improvements, something that isn’t easily identified by popular benchmarking. This large performance increase further helps the SoC improve energy efficiency, and our initial battery life figures of the new 13 series showcase that the chip has a very large part into the vastly longer longevity of the new devices. https://www.anandtech.com/show/16983/the-apple-a15-soc-performance-review-faster-more-efficient/4 https://www.anandtech.com/show/16983/the-apple-a15-soc-perfo... Intel and AMD seem to have both returned to the Pentium 4 days of chasing performance via increased clock speeds and power draws.
  - eis 4y ago
    The report you quoted and linked to is about the A15 and not the M2. The M2 is based on the A15 but from what I've seen it does use quite a bit more power (~30%?) than the M1 when loaded. Anandtech did not analyze the M2 yet as far as I can see.
    - GeekyBear 4y ago
      As previously noted, those core designs are used in both the A15 and the M2. Just as the same cores were used in the A14 and M1. Using more power overall comes from adding additional GPU cores and other non-CPU core functionality.
      - eis 4y ago
        If the increase in power consumption comes from the additional GPU core, from increased frequencies in the CPU cores or other added parts to the chip imho is not that important for users (and depends on what they are doing). They see the system as a whole. They get x% more performance for y% more power usage. For the CPU x is smaller than y. This is totally normal when increasing frequencies. Note: I'm not saying the M2 is bad. It's a very good chip indeed. All I said was it was not amazing. It was an iterational, yet welcome, improvement. And I think one couldn't expect anything amazing quite so quickly.
        GeekyBear 4y ago
        We're talking about CPU core design. Would we say the Zen 4 core design is less efficient because AMD is going to start bundling an integrated GPU with Ryzen chips, or would we just talk about Zen 4 core power draw vs Zen 3? Apple's performance cores managed to improve performance while cutting power. What other iterative core design did this? It helps to remember that Apple isn't playing the performance via clock increases no matter what happens to power and heat game.
        eis 4y ago
        I guess that's where the misunderstanding comes from. I was not talking about CPU cores alone. Only M1, M2 as a whole. But I still am not sure if I can believe that the M2 CPU improved performance while at the same time cutting power. Can you link to some analysis? Would be very interesting. Though please not the A15 one, the cores are related but not the same and the CPUs have big differences.
- nonameiguess 4y ago
  Are you European? The price of the M2 Air did not increase. The USD price was exactly the same as for the M1 Air. Both debuted at $1199. The price went up in Europe because of a drastic reduction in the EUR/USD exchange rate.
  - eis 4y ago
    The M1 Air launched at a price of $999. The increase to $1199 happened with the launch of the M2 Air. > With its sleek wedge-shaped design, stunning Retina display, Magic Keyboard, and astonishing level of performance thanks to M1, the new MacBook Air once again redefines what a thin and light notebook can do. And it is still just $999, and $899 for education. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/11/introducing-the-next-generation-of-mac/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/11/introducing-the-next-...
  - kergonath 4y ago
    The euro is not doing great, but the dollar is falling as well.
    - mediaman 4y ago
      The dollar is not falling. It has been extremely strong against any standard world currency basket. So strong it hurts exporters.
      - eis 4y ago
        Actually the dollar is falling as well (in real purchasing power) due to inflation. It's doing quite a bit better at the moment compared to e.g. Euro. One factor could be the increased interest rates. Why would I keep Euros and get still nothing when I could get at least a little bit on the USD. Also the war in Europe does not help their currency.
yoz-y 4y ago
Almost nobody should update from one generation of CPUs to the next one though. Incremental upgrades are fine.
rvz 4y ago
After the November 2020 launch day chaos, with not that much existing software available was working on those machines at the time like Docker, Java, Android Studio / Emulator, VSTs, etc a typical developer would have to wait more than 6 months just to do their work with fully supported software on the system and to take full advantage of the performance gains rather than using Rosetta. At that point, they might as well skipped the M1 machines and instead waited to purchase the M1 Pro MacBooks. Now there isn't a rush in getting a M1 Macbook anymore as now Apple is already moving to the M2 line up. By the time they have made an Apple Silicon Mac Pro, they are already planning ahead for the new series of Apple Silicon chips; probably M3, which will be after the M2 Pro/Ultra products. After that, it will be the beginning of the end of macOS on Intel.
- simonh 4y ago
  >…not much existing software was working [lists a few nerdy dev tools used by 0.01% of the Mac user bsse]…
  - School-Cotton 4y ago
    Surely software developers (and other people using x86-only software like Photoshop) are more than 0.01% of the mac user base. Apple has specifically said that vim users are the reason they put back the physical escape key…
    - KerrAvon 4y ago
      Photoshop worked on M1 on day 1. What is the argument even about here? Someone is upset that all software developers didn’t port everything to M1 overnight?
      - rvz 4y ago
        > Photoshop worked on M1 on day 1. Complete and absolute nonsense. From [0]: As of March 2021, Photoshop now runs natively on Apple computers using the Apple Silicon M1 chip with 1.5X the speed of similarly configured previous generation systems. Even before that it wasn't supported or designed to run on M1, hence the frequent crashes and freezing users were getting. Therefore, it wasn't working. So how exactly is waiting until March 2021 for a stable M1 version of Photoshop, "working on day 1"? [0] https://helpx.adobe.com/uk/photoshop/kb/photoshop-for-apple-silicon.html https://helpx.adobe.com/uk/photoshop/kb/photoshop-for-apple-...
saagarjha 4y ago
idk, I feel like most people don’t replace their expensive MacBook Pros every single time there’s a new one
kergonath 4y ago
> I wouldn't replace my M1 MacBook pro without seeing significantly superior performance / watt numbers What makes you think that this will happen in one generation? The point of the M2 is not to get M1 users to migrate, it’s to keep improving so that MacBooks are still better products than the competition. Apple does not care that you don’t get a new computer every year, they are most likely planning for 3 to 5 years replacement cycles.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Maursault 4y ago
> The M2 numbers from the N5P process were underwhelming. No, they weren't. Performance improvements are precisely in line with every previous hardware update. Apple hardware updates are always and only incremental improvements, since the very beginning. Apple is reasonably predictable in this regard. Expecting more than what Apple has always given in hardware updates is overtly unrealistic.

eis 4y ago

Of course nothing forces them to be ready within 2 years but alas, that's what Apple said they'd do. I agree the M2 numbers were not amazing. I guess after the big M1 shock it's hard to follow up with something that comes even close. You can't get similar gains like the transition from x86 to an integrated arm based SOC brought, doubly so when there's no substantial process node improvement (N5 -> N5P is a minor optimization). In the end they mostly bought better performance with a bigger die and increased power consumption. I'm pretty convinced they'll need N3 for the next jump but even that wont be on the level of the Intel -> M1 step. The revolution has happened, now it's all about evolution. BTW if Apple wants to increase the prices of the Pro macbooks like they did with the M2 Air due to inflation then they better justify it with some good gains. The big changes in terms of hardware redesign already happened last time.

GeekyBear 4y ago
> I agree the M2 numbers were not amazing. What other CPU core design iteration managed to improve performance while also cutting power draw? Anandtech's deep dive on the performance and efficiency cores used in the A15 and M2: Performance: >In our extensive testing, we’re elated to see that it was actually mostly an efficiency focus this year, with the new performance cores showcasing adequate performance improvements, while at the same time reducing power consumption, as well as significantly improving energy efficiency. Efficiency: >The efficiency cores have also seen massive gains, this time around with Apple mostly investing them back into performance, with the new cores showcasing +23-28% absolute performance improvements, something that isn’t easily identified by popular benchmarking. This large performance increase further helps the SoC improve energy efficiency, and our initial battery life figures of the new 13 series showcase that the chip has a very large part into the vastly longer longevity of the new devices. https://www.anandtech.com/show/16983/the-apple-a15-soc-performance-review-faster-more-efficient/4 https://www.anandtech.com/show/16983/the-apple-a15-soc-perfo... Intel and AMD seem to have both returned to the Pentium 4 days of chasing performance via increased clock speeds and power draws.
- eis 4y ago
  The report you quoted and linked to is about the A15 and not the M2. The M2 is based on the A15 but from what I've seen it does use quite a bit more power (~30%?) than the M1 when loaded. Anandtech did not analyze the M2 yet as far as I can see.
  - GeekyBear 4y ago
    As previously noted, those core designs are used in both the A15 and the M2. Just as the same cores were used in the A14 and M1. Using more power overall comes from adding additional GPU cores and other non-CPU core functionality.
    - eis 4y ago
      If the increase in power consumption comes from the additional GPU core, from increased frequencies in the CPU cores or other added parts to the chip imho is not that important for users (and depends on what they are doing). They see the system as a whole. They get x% more performance for y% more power usage. For the CPU x is smaller than y. This is totally normal when increasing frequencies. Note: I'm not saying the M2 is bad. It's a very good chip indeed. All I said was it was not amazing. It was an iterational, yet welcome, improvement. And I think one couldn't expect anything amazing quite so quickly.
      - GeekyBear 4y ago
        We're talking about CPU core design. Would we say the Zen 4 core design is less efficient because AMD is going to start bundling an integrated GPU with Ryzen chips, or would we just talk about Zen 4 core power draw vs Zen 3? Apple's performance cores managed to improve performance while cutting power. What other iterative core design did this? It helps to remember that Apple isn't playing the performance via clock increases no matter what happens to power and heat game.
        eis 4y ago
        I guess that's where the misunderstanding comes from. I was not talking about CPU cores alone. Only M1, M2 as a whole. But I still am not sure if I can believe that the M2 CPU improved performance while at the same time cutting power. Can you link to some analysis? Would be very interesting. Though please not the A15 one, the cores are related but not the same and the CPUs have big differences.
nonameiguess 4y ago
Are you European? The price of the M2 Air did not increase. The USD price was exactly the same as for the M1 Air. Both debuted at $1199. The price went up in Europe because of a drastic reduction in the EUR/USD exchange rate.
- eis 4y ago
  The M1 Air launched at a price of $999. The increase to $1199 happened with the launch of the M2 Air. > With its sleek wedge-shaped design, stunning Retina display, Magic Keyboard, and astonishing level of performance thanks to M1, the new MacBook Air once again redefines what a thin and light notebook can do. And it is still just $999, and $899 for education. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/11/introducing-the-next-generation-of-mac/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/11/introducing-the-next-...
- kergonath 4y ago
  The euro is not doing great, but the dollar is falling as well.
  - mediaman 4y ago
    The dollar is not falling. It has been extremely strong against any standard world currency basket. So strong it hurts exporters.
    - eis 4y ago
      Actually the dollar is falling as well (in real purchasing power) due to inflation. It's doing quite a bit better at the moment compared to e.g. Euro. One factor could be the increased interest rates. Why would I keep Euros and get still nothing when I could get at least a little bit on the USD. Also the war in Europe does not help their currency.

yoz-y 4y ago

Almost nobody should update from one generation of CPUs to the next one though. Incremental upgrades are fine.

rvz 4y ago

After the November 2020 launch day chaos, with not that much existing software available was working on those machines at the time like Docker, Java, Android Studio / Emulator, VSTs, etc a typical developer would have to wait more than 6 months just to do their work with fully supported software on the system and to take full advantage of the performance gains rather than using Rosetta. At that point, they might as well skipped the M1 machines and instead waited to purchase the M1 Pro MacBooks. Now there isn't a rush in getting a M1 Macbook anymore as now Apple is already moving to the M2 line up. By the time they have made an Apple Silicon Mac Pro, they are already planning ahead for the new series of Apple Silicon chips; probably M3, which will be after the M2 Pro/Ultra products. After that, it will be the beginning of the end of macOS on Intel.

simonh 4y ago
>…not much existing software was working [lists a few nerdy dev tools used by 0.01% of the Mac user bsse]…
- School-Cotton 4y ago
  Surely software developers (and other people using x86-only software like Photoshop) are more than 0.01% of the mac user base. Apple has specifically said that vim users are the reason they put back the physical escape key…
  - KerrAvon 4y ago
    Photoshop worked on M1 on day 1. What is the argument even about here? Someone is upset that all software developers didn’t port everything to M1 overnight?
    - rvz 4y ago
      > Photoshop worked on M1 on day 1. Complete and absolute nonsense. From [0]: As of March 2021, Photoshop now runs natively on Apple computers using the Apple Silicon M1 chip with 1.5X the speed of similarly configured previous generation systems. Even before that it wasn't supported or designed to run on M1, hence the frequent crashes and freezing users were getting. Therefore, it wasn't working. So how exactly is waiting until March 2021 for a stable M1 version of Photoshop, "working on day 1"? [0] https://helpx.adobe.com/uk/photoshop/kb/photoshop-for-apple-silicon.html https://helpx.adobe.com/uk/photoshop/kb/photoshop-for-apple-...

saagarjha 4y ago

idk, I feel like most people don’t replace their expensive MacBook Pros every single time there’s a new one

kergonath 4y ago

> I wouldn't replace my M1 MacBook pro without seeing significantly superior performance / watt numbers What makes you think that this will happen in one generation? The point of the M2 is not to get M1 users to migrate, it’s to keep improving so that MacBooks are still better products than the competition. Apple does not care that you don’t get a new computer every year, they are most likely planning for 3 to 5 years replacement cycles.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Maursault 4y ago

> The M2 numbers from the N5P process were underwhelming. No, they weren't. Performance improvements are precisely in line with every previous hardware update. Apple hardware updates are always and only incremental improvements, since the very beginning. Apple is reasonably predictable in this regard. Expecting more than what Apple has always given in hardware updates is overtly unrealistic.