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It's been noted that American tourists absolutely love the charm and density of European cities when they visit but somewhere over the Atlantic, they forget tha

It's been noted that American tourists absolutely love the charm and density of European cities when they visit but somewhere over the Atlantic, they forget that they could have that at home too, if it were legal to build.

giantg2 4y ago
Or perhaps they realize they only enjoy visiting such places because they couldn't have their larger houses, yards, cars, and whatever else they want. There are plenty of places that would I would be interested in visiting but have no interest in moving to.
- Steltek 4y ago
  Different people have different tastes. The high price of dense areas in the US shows a demand that is currently impossible to meet due to zoning.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    Eh, everybody wants to blame zoning. Yet that ignores the preferences of the population - many people want single family homes with a yard. You can build a bunch of condos and apartments, but it'll will only help until you hit a certain percentage. Nobody wants to build a ton of apartments if their competitors can too, as it would drive down the cost. Even then you run into the preference problem - people want to buy eventually. So yeah, changing zoning can help, but land, especially with specific geographic areas, is still a finite resource in high demand.
ROTMetro 4y ago
Would American high density look like charming antique cities, or would it look like China's modern made high density? Shanghai was cool to visit but I definitely wouldn't want to live there. Or would it look like something else? Changing zoning is not going to suddenly create charming 300-1000 year old walking cities highly curated and subsidized by tourist dollars to make tourist destinations but that sure gets pushed on every one of these HN stories. American's go on cruises (a super high density vacation) that are very communal. Do you want to recreate the 'cruise' experience in every American city? American's go to Disneyland for vacation, does that mean American's love waiting in long lines and we should design cities around long lines and overpriced fast food?
- dqv 4y ago
  >Changing zoning is not going to suddenly create charming 300-1000 year old walking cities No, nothing is sudden. It's always transitional; everything is a gradient. You have a gradient that starts at least dense all the way up to most dense. The problem is polarized American thought that immediately imagines mixed zoning to be someone building a mega skyscraper next to a single family home. In reality, someone will build a duplex. Further down someone might build a multilevel quadplex. Further down someone might build townhomes, then further down residential on top with business on bottom. This takes decades on time scale, but this is what people are advocating for. >Do you want to recreate the 'cruise' experience in every American city? Sure, in some places at the end of the gradient where things are most dense (and land is most expensive) it would make sense. There are people who absolutely want this experience for every day life. >American's go to Disneyland for vacation, does that mean American's love waiting in long lines and we should design cities around long lines and overpriced fast food? In my suburb, people love to wait in long drive-thru lines for overpriced fast food, so based on my experience, yes. But to answer your questions, should we design cities around one specific way of building and make it homogenous? No. There is a whole variety of different structures to be built before the cruise ship: https://missingmiddlehousing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/MMH_Diagram_Landing_Page-2.jpg https://missingmiddlehousing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/...
- dougmwne 4y ago
  Plenty of Europe is brand new and still high density and walkable. It’s not a historical accident, but an actual urban design preference. I live on the very edge of the city. The farms start right after my townhouse. The urban environment stops at my doorstep, but I am fully in the city and have a convenient electric trolley bus line, walkable shops and restaurants and a great bike infrastructure. A new neighborhood of flats is going in, replacing the farms across the street which is about 800 units in 40 densely packed buildings, similar density to the city center. You would have to be in the center of NYC to see that density in the US.
  - trilbyglens 4y ago
    So much this. I'm american and have been living in Europe for almost 15 years, and it still shocks me how unbelievably poor american cities are, almost universally. The modern trend of "re-densifying" has really only ended up building out load of expensive yuppie bullshit housing that no one will live in past the age of 35, much less raise a family in. I think it's safe to say that city planners in the US just don't really get it.
anonporridge 4y ago
https://twitter.com/culdesac/ https://twitter.com/culdesac/
throwaway0a5e 4y ago
Why don't you sing the praises of Egypt, Thailand or the myriad of Caribbean islands? Tourists love those places, hell they love anything as long as you keep the ugly out of view. I grew up in a first world tourist town. It was a meth ridden dump full of swindlers and was absolutely no place to raise a family unless you had some tourist business your kids were keen on inheriting and running. "Tourists like it" is completely and totally tangential to whether somewhere is nice to live.

giantg2 4y ago

Or perhaps they realize they only enjoy visiting such places because they couldn't have their larger houses, yards, cars, and whatever else they want. There are plenty of places that would I would be interested in visiting but have no interest in moving to.

Steltek 4y ago
Different people have different tastes. The high price of dense areas in the US shows a demand that is currently impossible to meet due to zoning.
- giantg2 4y ago
  Eh, everybody wants to blame zoning. Yet that ignores the preferences of the population - many people want single family homes with a yard. You can build a bunch of condos and apartments, but it'll will only help until you hit a certain percentage. Nobody wants to build a ton of apartments if their competitors can too, as it would drive down the cost. Even then you run into the preference problem - people want to buy eventually. So yeah, changing zoning can help, but land, especially with specific geographic areas, is still a finite resource in high demand.

ROTMetro 4y ago

Would American high density look like charming antique cities, or would it look like China's modern made high density? Shanghai was cool to visit but I definitely wouldn't want to live there. Or would it look like something else? Changing zoning is not going to suddenly create charming 300-1000 year old walking cities highly curated and subsidized by tourist dollars to make tourist destinations but that sure gets pushed on every one of these HN stories. American's go on cruises (a super high density vacation) that are very communal. Do you want to recreate the 'cruise' experience in every American city? American's go to Disneyland for vacation, does that mean American's love waiting in long lines and we should design cities around long lines and overpriced fast food?

dqv 4y ago
>Changing zoning is not going to suddenly create charming 300-1000 year old walking cities No, nothing is sudden. It's always transitional; everything is a gradient. You have a gradient that starts at least dense all the way up to most dense. The problem is polarized American thought that immediately imagines mixed zoning to be someone building a mega skyscraper next to a single family home. In reality, someone will build a duplex. Further down someone might build a multilevel quadplex. Further down someone might build townhomes, then further down residential on top with business on bottom. This takes decades on time scale, but this is what people are advocating for. >Do you want to recreate the 'cruise' experience in every American city? Sure, in some places at the end of the gradient where things are most dense (and land is most expensive) it would make sense. There are people who absolutely want this experience for every day life. >American's go to Disneyland for vacation, does that mean American's love waiting in long lines and we should design cities around long lines and overpriced fast food? In my suburb, people love to wait in long drive-thru lines for overpriced fast food, so based on my experience, yes. But to answer your questions, should we design cities around one specific way of building and make it homogenous? No. There is a whole variety of different structures to be built before the cruise ship: https://missingmiddlehousing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/MMH_Diagram_Landing_Page-2.jpg https://missingmiddlehousing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/...
dougmwne 4y ago
Plenty of Europe is brand new and still high density and walkable. It’s not a historical accident, but an actual urban design preference. I live on the very edge of the city. The farms start right after my townhouse. The urban environment stops at my doorstep, but I am fully in the city and have a convenient electric trolley bus line, walkable shops and restaurants and a great bike infrastructure. A new neighborhood of flats is going in, replacing the farms across the street which is about 800 units in 40 densely packed buildings, similar density to the city center. You would have to be in the center of NYC to see that density in the US.
- trilbyglens 4y ago
  So much this. I'm american and have been living in Europe for almost 15 years, and it still shocks me how unbelievably poor american cities are, almost universally. The modern trend of "re-densifying" has really only ended up building out load of expensive yuppie bullshit housing that no one will live in past the age of 35, much less raise a family in. I think it's safe to say that city planners in the US just don't really get it.

anonporridge 4y ago

https://twitter.com/culdesac/ https://twitter.com/culdesac/

throwaway0a5e 4y ago

Why don't you sing the praises of Egypt, Thailand or the myriad of Caribbean islands? Tourists love those places, hell they love anything as long as you keep the ugly out of view. I grew up in a first world tourist town. It was a meth ridden dump full of swindlers and was absolutely no place to raise a family unless you had some tourist business your kids were keen on inheriting and running. "Tourists like it" is completely and totally tangential to whether somewhere is nice to live.