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I don't understand this sentiment sometimes. There may be fraud and abuse. There may also be a material cost to a company whose detailed financial situation I'm

I don't understand this sentiment sometimes. There may be fraud and abuse. There may also be a material cost to a company whose detailed financial situation I'm assuming you are not purvey to. Someone doesn't need to be "a stupid MBA" to have made this decision (in fact my guess would be it involved many cross functional and leadership perspectives given its nature). Also, this is quite possibly something necessary for the future continued health of the business and the jobs it supports. If so, I'd consider it anything but stupid.

joshstrange 4y ago
Salesforce made 4.34B in gross profit in 2021, they aren't hurting for money and the "health of the business" seems perfectly fine. I'm sure someone got a raise for cutting this program, it will save the company some money in the short term, and that person will have left to screw up another company before the chickens come home to roost. It's a tale as old as time and something we've seen enough times to notice the signs.
- ubertaco 4y ago
  This is Salesforce we're talking about, the company that pledged not to do any layoffs during the pandemic, then announced that they were laying off 1000 people literally the day after announcing what they called "the best quarter in company history." [0] Worst of all? Many of the people who worked at Salesforce found out they were laid off _by reading the news article_ (source: I worked at Salesforce at the time, and there was a _lot_ of commotion internally to try to track down which managers had the audacity to give the laid-off employees advance notice before the public announcement, and lots of internal all-hands-meeting outrage directed at people who dared to "break trust" by telling reporters that they had been laid off). [0] https://abcnews.go.com/Business/salesforce-announces-layoffs-quarterly-revenue-tops-billion/story?id=72650370 https://abcnews.go.com/Business/salesforce-announces-layoffs...
nebula8804 4y ago
MBAs have destroyed the US/Europe. How? Outsourcing all the jobs/manufacturing to China. This caused so many knock on effects. Some include an angry unemployed population electing Trump/other populists, the west being caught with its pants down during COVID when things we needed could not be obtained from China...many others as well. Then subsequently after all the manufacturing jobs were outsourced the next thing to be outsourced was R&D(to suppliers). For example: Car companies shutting down one division after another and just relying on suppliers. Ford used to have in house seat development, their own metallurgical teams etc. All of it outsourced to suppliers who are trying to spread out their costs so everyone gets the bare minimum because all of the fundamental tooling is reused for every customer. The MBA dream was to outsource everything including manufacturing and just stick a badge on the finished car at the end. It is a cancer that has permeated a lot of western business(so many MBA grads have to go somewhere right? They ended up at almost every company regardless of industry) We are finally starting to swing back to pre-MBA. Tesla for example was criticized heavily for doing things like bringing seat manufacturing in house. They understood that everything a user touches and feels should be in house profound knowledge and I believe it is benefiting them in terms of customer satisfaction. Furthermore material science knowledge sharing with SpaceX is very exciting to see and will hopefully increase innovation in the industry. Its not only Tesla, small business is turning the ship around as well. Another example is Origin USA. They wanted to bring back jiu jitsu gis manufacturing but discovered that most industrial looms were rusting away or shipped overseas. They found one loom in Maine and pulled the old guys who knew how to run it out of retirement to help teach a new young generation to slowly start bringing that experience and capability back into the US. A lot of profound knowledge has been lost. People forget that technology and what we enjoy does not magically come out of nowhere. It requires sustained effort and on the ground knowledge that has to be maintained or it will be lost.
- donmcronald 4y ago
  > A lot of profound knowledge has been lost. People forget that technology and what we enjoy does not magically come out of nowhere. It requires sustained effort and on the ground knowledge that has to be maintained or it will be lost. This is something that I wish people would understand when it comes to the right-to-repair movement. For example, if nothing changes, in a couple of generations the only knowledge that will exist for repairing farm machinery will be dictated by manufacturers and will only include processes that are profitable for those manufacturers. The worst outcome would be one with parts serialization and keys that are controlled by a foreign country. A really good example that shows the importance of independent knowledge is board level laptop repair. Until I watched Rossman's YouTube channel I though a bad motherboard was unrepairable. Then, after a bit of watching, I started to realize there are a lot of repairs that are practical, but the knowledge has almost been wiped out by large manufacturers that benefit from whole part or whole machine replacement rather than repair.
  - nebula8804 4y ago
    >The worst outcome would be one with parts serialization and keys that are controlled by a foreign country. This is one way how the US keeps its partners in line. Sure they will sell tons of aircraft and destroyers to countries like Saudi Arabia/Israel/etc. Hell they will even give money to these countries to then have it be spent right back to American companies. But the actual maintenance/parts/upgrades are controlled 100% by the US. They force the country to accept that it is better than nothing and at the same time help the US keep a leash on the country purchasing the equipment. This concept is being expanded even further. At DEFCON in 2019 there was a talk about retrofitting older war tech with DRM and custom parts to better control who can utilize the equipment should it get out of the hands of the "intended customers". For example, in the Soviet war on Afghanistan, one amazing piece of equipment that helped tip the scales of the war in favor of the US backed Mujahideen fighting the Soviets was the Stinger portable missile system. More recently it has been discovered that systems like these are provided under the table to groups that the US wishes to unofficially support but sometimes tend to go missing and end up being used against the US. As a result, there are now efforts to bolt on digital parts serialization + access control modules to prevent "unauthorized" use/track whereabouts. I find the thought of adding DRM to 1980s technology hilariously silly but then I was treated to Single Sign On/DRM being added to DOOM....yes that DOOM, the one from 1993. [1]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh7nZ9t2eJA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh7nZ9t2eJA
N_A_T_E 4y ago
Someone doesn't need to be "a stupid MBA" to have made this decision They might not have an MBA but it seems like a "bean counter" sort of decision. Maybe it's easier to just blame the MBAs than assess the whole leadership team's motives when we see short sighted strategies that improve profitability today and kill the product's ecosystem in the long term. I'm getting flashbacks of the Boeing documentary just writing this.
countspongebob 4y ago
Thanks Shostack. As it happens, I don't have an MBA, but I have considered in the past as I think it is important for people who come up through the engineering ranks to GM jobs to be well rounded. Instead I've done a lot of learning on the job, which also works.
nathanaldensr 4y ago
I think you mean "privy to."

joshstrange 4y ago

Salesforce made 4.34B in gross profit in 2021, they aren't hurting for money and the "health of the business" seems perfectly fine. I'm sure someone got a raise for cutting this program, it will save the company some money in the short term, and that person will have left to screw up another company before the chickens come home to roost. It's a tale as old as time and something we've seen enough times to notice the signs.

ubertaco 4y ago
This is Salesforce we're talking about, the company that pledged not to do any layoffs during the pandemic, then announced that they were laying off 1000 people literally the day after announcing what they called "the best quarter in company history." [0] Worst of all? Many of the people who worked at Salesforce found out they were laid off _by reading the news article_ (source: I worked at Salesforce at the time, and there was a _lot_ of commotion internally to try to track down which managers had the audacity to give the laid-off employees advance notice before the public announcement, and lots of internal all-hands-meeting outrage directed at people who dared to "break trust" by telling reporters that they had been laid off). [0] https://abcnews.go.com/Business/salesforce-announces-layoffs-quarterly-revenue-tops-billion/story?id=72650370 https://abcnews.go.com/Business/salesforce-announces-layoffs...

nebula8804 4y ago

MBAs have destroyed the US/Europe. How? Outsourcing all the jobs/manufacturing to China. This caused so many knock on effects. Some include an angry unemployed population electing Trump/other populists, the west being caught with its pants down during COVID when things we needed could not be obtained from China...many others as well. Then subsequently after all the manufacturing jobs were outsourced the next thing to be outsourced was R&D(to suppliers). For example: Car companies shutting down one division after another and just relying on suppliers. Ford used to have in house seat development, their own metallurgical teams etc. All of it outsourced to suppliers who are trying to spread out their costs so everyone gets the bare minimum because all of the fundamental tooling is reused for every customer. The MBA dream was to outsource everything including manufacturing and just stick a badge on the finished car at the end. It is a cancer that has permeated a lot of western business(so many MBA grads have to go somewhere right? They ended up at almost every company regardless of industry) We are finally starting to swing back to pre-MBA. Tesla for example was criticized heavily for doing things like bringing seat manufacturing in house. They understood that everything a user touches and feels should be in house profound knowledge and I believe it is benefiting them in terms of customer satisfaction. Furthermore material science knowledge sharing with SpaceX is very exciting to see and will hopefully increase innovation in the industry. Its not only Tesla, small business is turning the ship around as well. Another example is Origin USA. They wanted to bring back jiu jitsu gis manufacturing but discovered that most industrial looms were rusting away or shipped overseas. They found one loom in Maine and pulled the old guys who knew how to run it out of retirement to help teach a new young generation to slowly start bringing that experience and capability back into the US. A lot of profound knowledge has been lost. People forget that technology and what we enjoy does not magically come out of nowhere. It requires sustained effort and on the ground knowledge that has to be maintained or it will be lost.

donmcronald 4y ago
> A lot of profound knowledge has been lost. People forget that technology and what we enjoy does not magically come out of nowhere. It requires sustained effort and on the ground knowledge that has to be maintained or it will be lost. This is something that I wish people would understand when it comes to the right-to-repair movement. For example, if nothing changes, in a couple of generations the only knowledge that will exist for repairing farm machinery will be dictated by manufacturers and will only include processes that are profitable for those manufacturers. The worst outcome would be one with parts serialization and keys that are controlled by a foreign country. A really good example that shows the importance of independent knowledge is board level laptop repair. Until I watched Rossman's YouTube channel I though a bad motherboard was unrepairable. Then, after a bit of watching, I started to realize there are a lot of repairs that are practical, but the knowledge has almost been wiped out by large manufacturers that benefit from whole part or whole machine replacement rather than repair.
- nebula8804 4y ago
  >The worst outcome would be one with parts serialization and keys that are controlled by a foreign country. This is one way how the US keeps its partners in line. Sure they will sell tons of aircraft and destroyers to countries like Saudi Arabia/Israel/etc. Hell they will even give money to these countries to then have it be spent right back to American companies. But the actual maintenance/parts/upgrades are controlled 100% by the US. They force the country to accept that it is better than nothing and at the same time help the US keep a leash on the country purchasing the equipment. This concept is being expanded even further. At DEFCON in 2019 there was a talk about retrofitting older war tech with DRM and custom parts to better control who can utilize the equipment should it get out of the hands of the "intended customers". For example, in the Soviet war on Afghanistan, one amazing piece of equipment that helped tip the scales of the war in favor of the US backed Mujahideen fighting the Soviets was the Stinger portable missile system. More recently it has been discovered that systems like these are provided under the table to groups that the US wishes to unofficially support but sometimes tend to go missing and end up being used against the US. As a result, there are now efforts to bolt on digital parts serialization + access control modules to prevent "unauthorized" use/track whereabouts. I find the thought of adding DRM to 1980s technology hilariously silly but then I was treated to Single Sign On/DRM being added to DOOM....yes that DOOM, the one from 1993. [1]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh7nZ9t2eJA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh7nZ9t2eJA

N_A_T_E 4y ago

Someone doesn't need to be "a stupid MBA" to have made this decision They might not have an MBA but it seems like a "bean counter" sort of decision. Maybe it's easier to just blame the MBAs than assess the whole leadership team's motives when we see short sighted strategies that improve profitability today and kill the product's ecosystem in the long term. I'm getting flashbacks of the Boeing documentary just writing this.

countspongebob 4y ago

Thanks Shostack. As it happens, I don't have an MBA, but I have considered in the past as I think it is important for people who come up through the engineering ranks to GM jobs to be well rounded. Instead I've done a lot of learning on the job, which also works.

nathanaldensr 4y ago

I think you mean "privy to."