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I don't get why heroku would do this, it's killing any customer who would start off small and scale up. I mean how much money could they possibly be losing fro

I don't get why heroku would do this, it's killing any customer who would start off small and scale up. I mean how much money could they possibly be losing from hobby dynos etc...

tptacek 4y ago
They're telling you why: having a free tier means allocating a lot of resources to fraud and abuse, which are rampant in hosting, especially now that you can convert hosting dollars almost directly to cash. It's a big problem, and I have every reason to believe they're being forthright about why they've made this decision.
- tzs 4y ago
  OT: your HN profile says: > All comments Copyright © 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2018, 2023, 2031 I'm curious. If you were to continue that sequence would the continuation be: A. 2044, 2065, 2099, 2154, 2242 B. 2044, 2065, 2099, 2154, 2243 C. Something else?
  - tptacek 4y ago
    My HN test is an IQ test that I, myself, cannot pass.
    - pvg 4y ago
      The future ones (2023, 2031, ...) are primes in lunar arithmetic in base 4 written in base 4, of course. https://oeis.org/A171122 https://oeis.org/A171122
- bombcar 4y ago
  You can still offer a "free tier for existing customers" and call it "development" or something. This lets people who are already known/paying to spin up test instances, without having to go through purchasing, which leads eventually to more paid usage.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    I guess it depends on where you think the platform is going, and which segment of the market you think the revenue is going to come from. I'm just saying: it's a significant cost. It's maybe the most important thing to know about the hosting business.
- joshstrange 4y ago
  That may all be true but I don't see any other way to frame this other than them throwing in the towel for the whole platform and/or conceding to other platforms that are better at spotting fraud/abuse. Require a credit card, require a deposit, allow free dynos for otherwise paying customers. Killing the whole program is a sign they don't care about growth, they don't care to be where a developer first launches a hobby that results in paying later, and they are fully embracing their Salesforce persona (not a good thing in my book).
  - Dma54rhs 4y ago
    They do require credit card for free dynos. Maybe it wasn't so in the beginning I can't remember.
  - shiftpgdn 4y ago
    I don't think you understand how much fraud and abuse is in the hosting world.
    - joshstrange 4y ago
      I've never said there wasn't any. Just that if you value a free tier (which you should if you want to attract developers) you find a way to deal with the fraud (or eat the cost). The fact that Salesforce either couldn't figure out (or didn't care to) the fraud and didn't want to pay for it spells bad news for the future of Heroku.
      - shiftpgdn 4y ago
        Again I don't think you understand the amount of resources that goes into anti-fraud teams in the hosting world. I used to work at a big hosting company and we had a team of 50+ people working around the clock to stop fraud ontop of tens of thousands of hours in engineering time to automate as much as possible. It STILL wasn't enough. I can only imagine how much worse it is when you have a free product offering.
        4y ago
- pyb 4y ago
  But, in other terms, it means they no longer have enough tech talent in-house to solve hard problems. This points to further decline down the line.
arthurcolle 4y ago
Salesforce acquired Heroku if you weren't aware. There's your "why" right there!
- CoffeeOnWrite 4y ago
  Um that was 11 years ago.
  - joshstrange 4y ago
    Which coincides with about the last time Heroku was relevant/competitive. This is just an example of the parent company tightening the screws some more (see also [0]). [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32174596 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32174596
    - CoffeeOnWrite 4y ago
      This is just wrong info. Search HN comments from ‘craigkerstiens, an early employee. Significant innovative product development continued for a few years after the acquisition.
      - joshstrange 4y ago
        That's always the case which is why I said "about the last time" instead of "the last time". There is always stuff in the pipeline, there are always still people who care for a while but they see the writing on the wall just like the rest of us, they leave, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm not saying there aren't/weren't good developers/managers at Heroku, I'm saying the sale to Salesforce started the end for Heroku. If the security incident a few months ago wasn't a clear "we don't care about Heroku" then I don't know what will wake some people up.
      - arthurcolle 4y ago
        A quick Google of this dude's handle/name and the first link is his blog with a reflective article about his experience at and subsequent departure from Heroku: https://www.craigkerstiens.com/2022/05/18/unfinished-business-with-postgres/ https://www.craigkerstiens.com/2022/05/18/unfinished-busines...
pythonaut_16 4y ago
They want it to die. They don't want to keep supporting Heroku but they don't want the bad press of killing it outright. Or at least they're pivoting from independent hosting to an enterprise value add for SalesForce. Or they're really short-sighted.

I don't get why heroku would do this, it's killing any customer who would start off small and scale up. I mean how much money could they possibly be losing from hobby dynos etc...

tptacek 4y ago

They're telling you why: having a free tier means allocating a lot of resources to fraud and abuse, which are rampant in hosting, especially now that you can convert hosting dollars almost directly to cash. It's a big problem, and I have every reason to believe they're being forthright about why they've made this decision.

tzs 4y ago
OT: your HN profile says: > All comments Copyright © 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2018, 2023, 2031 I'm curious. If you were to continue that sequence would the continuation be: A. 2044, 2065, 2099, 2154, 2242 B. 2044, 2065, 2099, 2154, 2243 C. Something else?
- tptacek 4y ago
  My HN test is an IQ test that I, myself, cannot pass.
  - pvg 4y ago
    The future ones (2023, 2031, ...) are primes in lunar arithmetic in base 4 written in base 4, of course. https://oeis.org/A171122 https://oeis.org/A171122
bombcar 4y ago
You can still offer a "free tier for existing customers" and call it "development" or something. This lets people who are already known/paying to spin up test instances, without having to go through purchasing, which leads eventually to more paid usage.
- tptacek 4y ago
  I guess it depends on where you think the platform is going, and which segment of the market you think the revenue is going to come from. I'm just saying: it's a significant cost. It's maybe the most important thing to know about the hosting business.
joshstrange 4y ago
That may all be true but I don't see any other way to frame this other than them throwing in the towel for the whole platform and/or conceding to other platforms that are better at spotting fraud/abuse. Require a credit card, require a deposit, allow free dynos for otherwise paying customers. Killing the whole program is a sign they don't care about growth, they don't care to be where a developer first launches a hobby that results in paying later, and they are fully embracing their Salesforce persona (not a good thing in my book).
- Dma54rhs 4y ago
  They do require credit card for free dynos. Maybe it wasn't so in the beginning I can't remember.
- shiftpgdn 4y ago
  I don't think you understand how much fraud and abuse is in the hosting world.
  - joshstrange 4y ago
    I've never said there wasn't any. Just that if you value a free tier (which you should if you want to attract developers) you find a way to deal with the fraud (or eat the cost). The fact that Salesforce either couldn't figure out (or didn't care to) the fraud and didn't want to pay for it spells bad news for the future of Heroku.
    - shiftpgdn 4y ago
      Again I don't think you understand the amount of resources that goes into anti-fraud teams in the hosting world. I used to work at a big hosting company and we had a team of 50+ people working around the clock to stop fraud ontop of tens of thousands of hours in engineering time to automate as much as possible. It STILL wasn't enough. I can only imagine how much worse it is when you have a free product offering.
      - 4y ago
pyb 4y ago
But, in other terms, it means they no longer have enough tech talent in-house to solve hard problems. This points to further decline down the line.

arthurcolle 4y ago

Salesforce acquired Heroku if you weren't aware. There's your "why" right there!

CoffeeOnWrite 4y ago
Um that was 11 years ago.
- joshstrange 4y ago
  Which coincides with about the last time Heroku was relevant/competitive. This is just an example of the parent company tightening the screws some more (see also [0]). [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32174596 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32174596
  - CoffeeOnWrite 4y ago
    This is just wrong info. Search HN comments from ‘craigkerstiens, an early employee. Significant innovative product development continued for a few years after the acquisition.
    - joshstrange 4y ago
      That's always the case which is why I said "about the last time" instead of "the last time". There is always stuff in the pipeline, there are always still people who care for a while but they see the writing on the wall just like the rest of us, they leave, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm not saying there aren't/weren't good developers/managers at Heroku, I'm saying the sale to Salesforce started the end for Heroku. If the security incident a few months ago wasn't a clear "we don't care about Heroku" then I don't know what will wake some people up.
    - arthurcolle 4y ago
      A quick Google of this dude's handle/name and the first link is his blog with a reflective article about his experience at and subsequent departure from Heroku: https://www.craigkerstiens.com/2022/05/18/unfinished-business-with-postgres/ https://www.craigkerstiens.com/2022/05/18/unfinished-busines...

pythonaut_16 4y ago

They want it to die. They don't want to keep supporting Heroku but they don't want the bad press of killing it outright. Or at least they're pivoting from independent hosting to an enterprise value add for SalesForce. Or they're really short-sighted.