5 ms·

That’s just wrong. The village I come from in germany has 8000 inhabitants, pretty much only single/double houses, practically no flats and perfectly walkable.

That’s just wrong. The village I come from in germany has 8000 inhabitants, pretty much only single/double houses, practically no flats and perfectly walkable. Multiple bakeries and grocery stores, never further than 15 minutes walk. It’s just that these small groceries cannot outcompete supermarkets once people are in the habit of going everywhere by car.

pif 4y ago
Parent wrote: > it's simply not economically viable You replied: > t’s just that these small groceries cannot outcompete supermarkets So you are confirming what he said.
- Xylakant 4y ago
  No, I’m not. The stores are economically viable unless you have a car centric culture. Car centric culture makes walkable mid-density neighborhoods unviable.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    Cars are no longer the only way to bring in goods from outside walking distance. Online orders can also supplant the need for cars in suburbs, while producing a significantly more options than a mom&pop grocery store. And with Covid restrictions and work-from-home, deliveries and online ordering were cemented as normal behavior.
    - Xylakant 4y ago
      The bakery in my parents town is famous enough for their bread that some people drive 50kms to buy that bread. No delivery service will come close to that, no way. Though I generally agree with that: the need for individual cars will become less and less as more options become available.
      - falcolas 4y ago
        So the bakery relies at least partially on car culture to survive? And there's always services who will pick up bread from such locations and deliver it. With or without the bakery's backing.
    - alistairSH 4y ago
      Online orders can also supplant the need for cars Uh, somebody has to deliver those orders. And in the US, that's by car (van). You might make single-car households more viable with pervasive online ordering/delivery, but you don't necessarily change the core character of the neighborhood that way.
hibikir 4y ago
Oh, but he isn't wrong. It's quite likely that your 8000 inhabitants (which are a lot more than 100 families) live close enough together, just because of lack of giant lawns, so that your typical store owner is getting more than 100 customers. So yes, it's not that you can't have single families, and it's not really about people having cars or not, it's the density, and therefore, it's the lawns and the streets that are too wide, making the number of places that you can go to in a 15 minute walk far smaller
foxyv 4y ago
> It’s just that these small groceries cannot outcompete supermarkets once people are in the habit of going everywhere by car. This is true to a limited extent. If small grocers and bakeries were allowed to setup in mixed use areas they would do a whole lot better. However sticking them an average of 3 miles from their customers in a horrible strip mall kills them. I would happily pay a premium for having a grocer just down the street instead of having to go 4+ miles to a supermarket. Being able to get a gallon of milk and some onions in 10-15 minutes from a place just down the street will always beat driving to, parking at, and walking around a 10 acre supermarket on a 50 acre parking lot. Just the stress of dodging all the parking lot speedsters is more than enough to keep me far from that place.
- alistairSH 4y ago
  If small grocers and bakeries were allowed to setup in mixed use areas That's the crux of the problem in the US. Vast swaths of land are dedicated to single-family homes (and ONLY single-family homes). You literally couldn't build a small grocery next to these homes if you wanted. And the hurdles to getting a zoning change as so high that developers just build strip malls on the outskirts of town/subdivision. We're beginning to see some progress in the DC suburbs, with more mixed-use "village centers" being built in the 'burbs. My main complaint with these is the development is done in one pass by a giant corporate developer, leaving the area feeling very sterile (compared to an old urban downtown in a small city, which might not be as clean, but has a more organic mix of businesses). IMO, of course.
  - AlwaysRock 4y ago
    Yeah I hate this. I get that zoning exists for a reason but some regulation would lead to better mixed use areas so its not houses for 15 blocks then businesses for 5 blocks and repeat.

pif 4y ago

Parent wrote: > it's simply not economically viable You replied: > t’s just that these small groceries cannot outcompete supermarkets So you are confirming what he said.

Xylakant 4y ago
No, I’m not. The stores are economically viable unless you have a car centric culture. Car centric culture makes walkable mid-density neighborhoods unviable.
- falcolas 4y ago
  Cars are no longer the only way to bring in goods from outside walking distance. Online orders can also supplant the need for cars in suburbs, while producing a significantly more options than a mom&pop grocery store. And with Covid restrictions and work-from-home, deliveries and online ordering were cemented as normal behavior.
  - Xylakant 4y ago
    The bakery in my parents town is famous enough for their bread that some people drive 50kms to buy that bread. No delivery service will come close to that, no way. Though I generally agree with that: the need for individual cars will become less and less as more options become available.
    - falcolas 4y ago
      So the bakery relies at least partially on car culture to survive? And there's always services who will pick up bread from such locations and deliver it. With or without the bakery's backing.
  - alistairSH 4y ago
    Online orders can also supplant the need for cars Uh, somebody has to deliver those orders. And in the US, that's by car (van). You might make single-car households more viable with pervasive online ordering/delivery, but you don't necessarily change the core character of the neighborhood that way.

hibikir 4y ago

Oh, but he isn't wrong. It's quite likely that your 8000 inhabitants (which are a lot more than 100 families) live close enough together, just because of lack of giant lawns, so that your typical store owner is getting more than 100 customers. So yes, it's not that you can't have single families, and it's not really about people having cars or not, it's the density, and therefore, it's the lawns and the streets that are too wide, making the number of places that you can go to in a 15 minute walk far smaller

foxyv 4y ago

> It’s just that these small groceries cannot outcompete supermarkets once people are in the habit of going everywhere by car. This is true to a limited extent. If small grocers and bakeries were allowed to setup in mixed use areas they would do a whole lot better. However sticking them an average of 3 miles from their customers in a horrible strip mall kills them. I would happily pay a premium for having a grocer just down the street instead of having to go 4+ miles to a supermarket. Being able to get a gallon of milk and some onions in 10-15 minutes from a place just down the street will always beat driving to, parking at, and walking around a 10 acre supermarket on a 50 acre parking lot. Just the stress of dodging all the parking lot speedsters is more than enough to keep me far from that place.

alistairSH 4y ago
If small grocers and bakeries were allowed to setup in mixed use areas That's the crux of the problem in the US. Vast swaths of land are dedicated to single-family homes (and ONLY single-family homes). You literally couldn't build a small grocery next to these homes if you wanted. And the hurdles to getting a zoning change as so high that developers just build strip malls on the outskirts of town/subdivision. We're beginning to see some progress in the DC suburbs, with more mixed-use "village centers" being built in the 'burbs. My main complaint with these is the development is done in one pass by a giant corporate developer, leaving the area feeling very sterile (compared to an old urban downtown in a small city, which might not be as clean, but has a more organic mix of businesses). IMO, of course.
- AlwaysRock 4y ago
  Yeah I hate this. I get that zoning exists for a reason but some regulation would lead to better mixed use areas so its not houses for 15 blocks then businesses for 5 blocks and repeat.