5 ms·

> One of the hardest parts about buying a home, apart from all the stuff that isnt fun about buying a home, is finding somewhere that is walkable to... anything

> One of the hardest parts about buying a home, apart from all the stuff that isnt fun about buying a home, is finding somewhere that is walkable to... anything. That's because if you want an individual home, you're giving up the customer density required to make those amenities viable. In a world with the internet, at-home delivery, and yes, cars, it's simply not economically viable to create a grocery store that only caters to 100ish families.

Xylakant 4y ago
That’s just wrong. The village I come from in germany has 8000 inhabitants, pretty much only single/double houses, practically no flats and perfectly walkable. Multiple bakeries and grocery stores, never further than 15 minutes walk. It’s just that these small groceries cannot outcompete supermarkets once people are in the habit of going everywhere by car.
- pif 4y ago
  Parent wrote: > it's simply not economically viable You replied: > t’s just that these small groceries cannot outcompete supermarkets So you are confirming what he said.
  - Xylakant 4y ago
    No, I’m not. The stores are economically viable unless you have a car centric culture. Car centric culture makes walkable mid-density neighborhoods unviable.
    - falcolas 4y ago
      Cars are no longer the only way to bring in goods from outside walking distance. Online orders can also supplant the need for cars in suburbs, while producing a significantly more options than a mom&pop grocery store. And with Covid restrictions and work-from-home, deliveries and online ordering were cemented as normal behavior.
      - Xylakant 4y ago
        The bakery in my parents town is famous enough for their bread that some people drive 50kms to buy that bread. No delivery service will come close to that, no way. Though I generally agree with that: the need for individual cars will become less and less as more options become available.
        falcolas 4y ago
        So the bakery relies at least partially on car culture to survive? And there's always services who will pick up bread from such locations and deliver it. With or without the bakery's backing.
      - alistairSH 4y ago
        Online orders can also supplant the need for cars Uh, somebody has to deliver those orders. And in the US, that's by car (van). You might make single-car households more viable with pervasive online ordering/delivery, but you don't necessarily change the core character of the neighborhood that way.
- hibikir 4y ago
  Oh, but he isn't wrong. It's quite likely that your 8000 inhabitants (which are a lot more than 100 families) live close enough together, just because of lack of giant lawns, so that your typical store owner is getting more than 100 customers. So yes, it's not that you can't have single families, and it's not really about people having cars or not, it's the density, and therefore, it's the lawns and the streets that are too wide, making the number of places that you can go to in a 15 minute walk far smaller
- foxyv 4y ago
  > It’s just that these small groceries cannot outcompete supermarkets once people are in the habit of going everywhere by car. This is true to a limited extent. If small grocers and bakeries were allowed to setup in mixed use areas they would do a whole lot better. However sticking them an average of 3 miles from their customers in a horrible strip mall kills them. I would happily pay a premium for having a grocer just down the street instead of having to go 4+ miles to a supermarket. Being able to get a gallon of milk and some onions in 10-15 minutes from a place just down the street will always beat driving to, parking at, and walking around a 10 acre supermarket on a 50 acre parking lot. Just the stress of dodging all the parking lot speedsters is more than enough to keep me far from that place.
  - alistairSH 4y ago
    If small grocers and bakeries were allowed to setup in mixed use areas That's the crux of the problem in the US. Vast swaths of land are dedicated to single-family homes (and ONLY single-family homes). You literally couldn't build a small grocery next to these homes if you wanted. And the hurdles to getting a zoning change as so high that developers just build strip malls on the outskirts of town/subdivision. We're beginning to see some progress in the DC suburbs, with more mixed-use "village centers" being built in the 'burbs. My main complaint with these is the development is done in one pass by a giant corporate developer, leaving the area feeling very sterile (compared to an old urban downtown in a small city, which might not be as clean, but has a more organic mix of businesses). IMO, of course.
    - AlwaysRock 4y ago
      Yeah I hate this. I get that zoning exists for a reason but some regulation would lead to better mixed use areas so its not houses for 15 blocks then businesses for 5 blocks and repeat.
pkulak 4y ago
OP said _home_, not single family house.
- mjevans 4y ago
  Not OP, but... Apartments suck, a lot, in the US. * Noise; aren't built to sufficient privacy levels. * Smell; laundry, cooking, or whatever... * not designed to scrub, filter, and direct exhaust. * Patios == smoke or grill; even though those are banned by policy. * Somehow cost more than renting elsewhere * Rent seeking causes negative patterns * Car parking hell As much as the anti-car crowd wants to be anti-car, they still exist, and many of us still have at least one per adult. Even if my job and day to day stuff fit in that city, family and friends currently don't: the car isn't going away. Yes these problems also exist when you rent in single family home (intended, often not fulfilled) suburbia, but they're less due to the lower density.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    Well said, and matches my experience nicely.
  - pkulak 4y ago
    Doesn't have to be an apartment. Just has to be a house without a 40ft setback on a giant lot. I live on the right side of a duplex and there's plenty of density to support a grocery store in walking distance.
  - dvdkon 4y ago
    It seems bad appartments are leading entire generations into thinking all appartments have to be terrible, last-resort options. I'm renting a recently renovated appartment , and while it's not perfect, the sound isolation is so good, that my roommate can play games with voice chat and I can sleep in the next room. Only a ~5cm wall separates our rooms. I think a future with comfortable, large, isolated apartments is possible, and even such "fancy" apartments are going to be cheaper than full houses, if there are enough of them.
  - blackoil 4y ago
stormbrew 4y ago
This just isn't at all true unless you define "house" as exclusively large lot single family homes with big back and front yards. Most dense and walkable places in the world are not full of high rises, they're a mix of high density houses and low to medium density apartments. This mix is really rare in North America, at least and especially north of Mexico, but it does exist.
- falcolas 4y ago
  > a mix of high density houses and low to medium density apartments Neither of which sounds very nice to me. I don't have a huge yard, but I do have enough yard to raise a few trees and firepit. If I lost that, I might as well be in an apartment. And that still wouldn't provide enough density to support a variety of restaurants and grocery stores (not to mention things like employment for non-techies).
  - closeparen 4y ago
    I grew up at 7k people per square mile. Almost all detached houses. My family’s was one of the smallest. We had a few trees and a fire pit. I walked to elementary, middle, and high school.
  - alistairSH 4y ago
    I think the key isn't so much making the single-family homes more dense, but allowing more mixed development mixed into the larger neighborhoods. Take my neighborhood (south Reston, VA). The main road is about 2.5 miles long. There is a strip mall at both ends, leaving homes in the midde just outside easy walking distance (from my house, by footpath, it's nearly 2 miles to one end and a bit over 1.25 to the other). There is a major intersection about halfway down that main road. Instead of allowing a small shopping area, it's more houses. Hard to change now, but if it had been zoned mixed-use/light commercial at build time, there could be a coffee shop and small grocer there. And bring between 1/3 and 1/2 of the available customers in the area within walking distance of at least some of their regular errands. Additional benefit of this would be reducing the size of the malls at each end, mostly by removing parking spaces, freeing that space for townhouse, apartments, or more shops. Take my office... it's 1.25 miles away, and I walk. But, the complex is all offices. If there were a grocer there or on the way, I could eliminate my 1x weekly carload, instead grabbing things as-needed on my walk home. Same office. I have coworkers who live closer than me, but refuse to try walking because the sidewalks and street crossings from their direction are less user-friendly. Crossing on/off ramps without signals. Crossing a 4 lane highway with 50mph traffic. Etc. Some simple crosswalk modifications could make the office complex walkable to some of these coworkers. But, traffic planners don't even appear to think of these things when building roads - it's almost 100% car-focused.
frumper 4y ago
The grocery store doesn't need to be near everyone's home. It just needs to be near your home. Buy a home in a location that suits your needs.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  The problem is that the overwhelming majority of land in the US is zoned in such a way where this is not legal, and as a result the relatively few locations that do accommodate this lifestyle have high premiums (both on a per unit and per sq ft basis)
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
    This is mostly a problem with postwar urbanism. Older regions of the country will have neighborhoods that retain some local business activity.
    - bobthepanda 4y ago
      The fact that it is hard if not impossible to develop this style of neighborhood is still a problem. Every passing year is another one in which old buildings are redeveloped and the US population grows, increasing market pressure.
      - asdff 4y ago
        Sometimes that old building is a tire shop and the new building is a 5 story apartment with ground floor commercial space, though.
        bobthepanda 4y ago
        I’m never all redevlopment is bad, but if part of the old parcels are the nice walkable shops and nearby residences, and we don’t really allow new ones, then it’s going to be a predictable net loss. A lot of these locations are grandfathered in and would not be allowed under their current zoning regulations. —- There’s a separate issue with new modern mixed use in the US where retail tends to have low occupancy. Partially this is because there continues to be a massive glut of retail space in the US, and partly because the new spaces tend to be too large to be profitable for anything other than chain stores, and there are only so many chain stores to go around.

Xylakant 4y ago

That’s just wrong. The village I come from in germany has 8000 inhabitants, pretty much only single/double houses, practically no flats and perfectly walkable. Multiple bakeries and grocery stores, never further than 15 minutes walk. It’s just that these small groceries cannot outcompete supermarkets once people are in the habit of going everywhere by car.

pif 4y ago
Parent wrote: > it's simply not economically viable You replied: > t’s just that these small groceries cannot outcompete supermarkets So you are confirming what he said.
- Xylakant 4y ago
  No, I’m not. The stores are economically viable unless you have a car centric culture. Car centric culture makes walkable mid-density neighborhoods unviable.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    Cars are no longer the only way to bring in goods from outside walking distance. Online orders can also supplant the need for cars in suburbs, while producing a significantly more options than a mom&pop grocery store. And with Covid restrictions and work-from-home, deliveries and online ordering were cemented as normal behavior.
    - Xylakant 4y ago
      The bakery in my parents town is famous enough for their bread that some people drive 50kms to buy that bread. No delivery service will come close to that, no way. Though I generally agree with that: the need for individual cars will become less and less as more options become available.
      - falcolas 4y ago
        So the bakery relies at least partially on car culture to survive? And there's always services who will pick up bread from such locations and deliver it. With or without the bakery's backing.
    - alistairSH 4y ago
      Online orders can also supplant the need for cars Uh, somebody has to deliver those orders. And in the US, that's by car (van). You might make single-car households more viable with pervasive online ordering/delivery, but you don't necessarily change the core character of the neighborhood that way.
hibikir 4y ago
Oh, but he isn't wrong. It's quite likely that your 8000 inhabitants (which are a lot more than 100 families) live close enough together, just because of lack of giant lawns, so that your typical store owner is getting more than 100 customers. So yes, it's not that you can't have single families, and it's not really about people having cars or not, it's the density, and therefore, it's the lawns and the streets that are too wide, making the number of places that you can go to in a 15 minute walk far smaller
foxyv 4y ago
> It’s just that these small groceries cannot outcompete supermarkets once people are in the habit of going everywhere by car. This is true to a limited extent. If small grocers and bakeries were allowed to setup in mixed use areas they would do a whole lot better. However sticking them an average of 3 miles from their customers in a horrible strip mall kills them. I would happily pay a premium for having a grocer just down the street instead of having to go 4+ miles to a supermarket. Being able to get a gallon of milk and some onions in 10-15 minutes from a place just down the street will always beat driving to, parking at, and walking around a 10 acre supermarket on a 50 acre parking lot. Just the stress of dodging all the parking lot speedsters is more than enough to keep me far from that place.
- alistairSH 4y ago
  If small grocers and bakeries were allowed to setup in mixed use areas That's the crux of the problem in the US. Vast swaths of land are dedicated to single-family homes (and ONLY single-family homes). You literally couldn't build a small grocery next to these homes if you wanted. And the hurdles to getting a zoning change as so high that developers just build strip malls on the outskirts of town/subdivision. We're beginning to see some progress in the DC suburbs, with more mixed-use "village centers" being built in the 'burbs. My main complaint with these is the development is done in one pass by a giant corporate developer, leaving the area feeling very sterile (compared to an old urban downtown in a small city, which might not be as clean, but has a more organic mix of businesses). IMO, of course.
  - AlwaysRock 4y ago
    Yeah I hate this. I get that zoning exists for a reason but some regulation would lead to better mixed use areas so its not houses for 15 blocks then businesses for 5 blocks and repeat.

pkulak 4y ago

OP said _home_, not single family house.

mjevans 4y ago
Not OP, but... Apartments suck, a lot, in the US. * Noise; aren't built to sufficient privacy levels. * Smell; laundry, cooking, or whatever... * not designed to scrub, filter, and direct exhaust. * Patios == smoke or grill; even though those are banned by policy. * Somehow cost more than renting elsewhere * Rent seeking causes negative patterns * Car parking hell As much as the anti-car crowd wants to be anti-car, they still exist, and many of us still have at least one per adult. Even if my job and day to day stuff fit in that city, family and friends currently don't: the car isn't going away. Yes these problems also exist when you rent in single family home (intended, often not fulfilled) suburbia, but they're less due to the lower density.
- falcolas 4y ago
  Well said, and matches my experience nicely.
- pkulak 4y ago
  Doesn't have to be an apartment. Just has to be a house without a 40ft setback on a giant lot. I live on the right side of a duplex and there's plenty of density to support a grocery store in walking distance.
- dvdkon 4y ago
  It seems bad appartments are leading entire generations into thinking all appartments have to be terrible, last-resort options. I'm renting a recently renovated appartment , and while it's not perfect, the sound isolation is so good, that my roommate can play games with voice chat and I can sleep in the next room. Only a ~5cm wall separates our rooms. I think a future with comfortable, large, isolated apartments is possible, and even such "fancy" apartments are going to be cheaper than full houses, if there are enough of them.
- blackoil 4y ago

stormbrew 4y ago

This just isn't at all true unless you define "house" as exclusively large lot single family homes with big back and front yards. Most dense and walkable places in the world are not full of high rises, they're a mix of high density houses and low to medium density apartments. This mix is really rare in North America, at least and especially north of Mexico, but it does exist.

falcolas 4y ago
> a mix of high density houses and low to medium density apartments Neither of which sounds very nice to me. I don't have a huge yard, but I do have enough yard to raise a few trees and firepit. If I lost that, I might as well be in an apartment. And that still wouldn't provide enough density to support a variety of restaurants and grocery stores (not to mention things like employment for non-techies).
- closeparen 4y ago
  I grew up at 7k people per square mile. Almost all detached houses. My family’s was one of the smallest. We had a few trees and a fire pit. I walked to elementary, middle, and high school.
- alistairSH 4y ago
  I think the key isn't so much making the single-family homes more dense, but allowing more mixed development mixed into the larger neighborhoods. Take my neighborhood (south Reston, VA). The main road is about 2.5 miles long. There is a strip mall at both ends, leaving homes in the midde just outside easy walking distance (from my house, by footpath, it's nearly 2 miles to one end and a bit over 1.25 to the other). There is a major intersection about halfway down that main road. Instead of allowing a small shopping area, it's more houses. Hard to change now, but if it had been zoned mixed-use/light commercial at build time, there could be a coffee shop and small grocer there. And bring between 1/3 and 1/2 of the available customers in the area within walking distance of at least some of their regular errands. Additional benefit of this would be reducing the size of the malls at each end, mostly by removing parking spaces, freeing that space for townhouse, apartments, or more shops. Take my office... it's 1.25 miles away, and I walk. But, the complex is all offices. If there were a grocer there or on the way, I could eliminate my 1x weekly carload, instead grabbing things as-needed on my walk home. Same office. I have coworkers who live closer than me, but refuse to try walking because the sidewalks and street crossings from their direction are less user-friendly. Crossing on/off ramps without signals. Crossing a 4 lane highway with 50mph traffic. Etc. Some simple crosswalk modifications could make the office complex walkable to some of these coworkers. But, traffic planners don't even appear to think of these things when building roads - it's almost 100% car-focused.

frumper 4y ago

The grocery store doesn't need to be near everyone's home. It just needs to be near your home. Buy a home in a location that suits your needs.

bobthepanda 4y ago
The problem is that the overwhelming majority of land in the US is zoned in such a way where this is not legal, and as a result the relatively few locations that do accommodate this lifestyle have high premiums (both on a per unit and per sq ft basis)
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  This is mostly a problem with postwar urbanism. Older regions of the country will have neighborhoods that retain some local business activity.
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    The fact that it is hard if not impossible to develop this style of neighborhood is still a problem. Every passing year is another one in which old buildings are redeveloped and the US population grows, increasing market pressure.
    - asdff 4y ago
      Sometimes that old building is a tire shop and the new building is a 5 story apartment with ground floor commercial space, though.
      - bobthepanda 4y ago
        I’m never all redevlopment is bad, but if part of the old parcels are the nice walkable shops and nearby residences, and we don’t really allow new ones, then it’s going to be a predictable net loss. A lot of these locations are grandfathered in and would not be allowed under their current zoning regulations. —- There’s a separate issue with new modern mixed use in the US where retail tends to have low occupancy. Partially this is because there continues to be a massive glut of retail space in the US, and partly because the new spaces tend to be too large to be profitable for anything other than chain stores, and there are only so many chain stores to go around.