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There is no need for that "right-wing" snub there, the same is happening here in Sweden where power prices in the middle and south have been going through the r

There is no need for that "right-wing" snub there, the same is happening here in Sweden where power prices in the middle and south have been going through the roof even though power generation costs have mostly [1] been unchanged due to the majority of power generation coming from hydroelectric plants (the north) and nuclear plants (the south). Prices have shot up in the south of Sweden because that part of the country is connected to the European grid and exports power generated in the north. Sweden is divided into 4 price regions, the price difference between the top 2 regions and the bottom 2 tends to be enormous. The explanation for the price difference is supposed to be the lack of power generation capacity in the south [see 1, again] while the north and middle have an excess of generating capacity but supposedly lack the network capacity to export this power to the south. That this is not correct is shown by the fact that the power actually is exported through the network [2] and from there finds its way to consumers both in Sweden as well as in neighbouring countries. The majority of the price difference is found between region SE2 and SE3 with power in SE3 often being several times more expensive than in SE2 (currently at €27/MHh in SE2, €525/MWh in SE3 for a factor of 20) with the proceedings of that differential going to the state. Everyone in Sweden paid for the creation of the power infrastructure but those living in the south get to pay dearly due to this artificial price difference. [1] thanks to the "green party" shutting down half of the nuclear capacity the top load oil-fired power plant in Karlshamn which used to run only during the coldest periods of winter is now running in the heart of summer, consuming between 70 m³ and 140m³ of oil per hour - it has been running for more hours this year than it ran for the last 10 years combined. Oil did get more expensive but Karlshamn still only produces a tiny fraction of power delivered here [2] https://www.svk.se/om-kraftsystemet/kontrollrummet/ https://www.svk.se/om-kraftsystemet/kontrollrummet/

ZeroGravitas 4y ago
You forgot to explain why price signals were bad and 'artificial'? I know nothing about Sweden, but: > https://www.thelocal.se/20220824/explained-whos-telling-the-truth-about-electricity-in-swedens-election/ https://www.thelocal.se/20220824/explained-whos-telling-the-... > “I think it’s simply political,” Nilsson says. “The conservative parties are hoping to gain votes by bringing up the nuclear issue. I don’t think they seriously think that we will build new nuclear in Sweden. Everyone knows that it’s terribly expensive and takes a very long time.” > Söder agrees: “The right-wing parties (Sweden Democrats, Moderates, Christian Democrats and Liberals) have nuclear power as a common interest where they can show unity. There are also several communities where wind power resistance has become significant, and by stating ‘we think it was stupid to shut down Ringhals’, they can attract voters – even if this will not in any way solve the long-term challenges in Sweden, which is to build a lot of new power production as cheaply as possible.” > It’s also worth noting that the Energiforsk report estimated that power prices would have been 35–50 percent lower if Sweden had opened an additional large, offshore windfarm off the coast of southern Sweden. So it appears there was need for my "right-wing" comment after all. I must be psychic.
- the_third_wave 4y ago
  A "price signal" is artificial when the market is manipulated to set the price artificially as is done in Sweden where electricity prices in the south are tied to the European market while those in the north are not. This leads to extreme differences in price based exclusively on where you happen to live. In some cases people will pay 20-30 times more for the same electricity than their neighbours who happen to just live on the other side of the region. Should I call this type of manipulation "left-wing" to counter your "right-wing" accusations? State-controlled markets are after all a "left-wing" phenomenon. But no, I won´t since I deem this type of polarised discussion counterproductive. On the subject of building nuclear power plants it is clear to everyone and his dog that the reason why building new plants is expensive and takes a long time lies in the policies put in place by the same people who claim that building nuclear power plants is too expensive and takes too much time. The "wind farm" argument is just as hollow since it is not the lack of "wind farms" which has driven up the price of electricity but the fact that those same people closed down 6 fully operational nuclear plants, thereby creating an electricity shortage in the south of the country which has led to an enormous increase in the use of fossil fuel-powered plants - the same plants they accuse of causing "climate change". Top load plants which used to only be needed in extreme circumstances - severe cold snaps in the middle of winter - are now needed on a regular basis to keep the net frequency from sagging below 48.5 Hz.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    That's not artificial. There are literal physical reasons why the prices in different markets are different. The transmission capacity is the limiting factor. Why do you think those are left-wing and artificial? Wind has been the cheapest source of energy in Europe for over a decade, yet the Swedish right-wing are against it. As long as the power plant has decent pollution controls and the carbon is taxed I don't really have an issue with it. That provides a clear price signal to build more cheap renewables, like wind. Unless you are against that, like the Swedish right-wing parties. Which doesn't really give me any confidence that they're doing the smart things to solve this 'problem' they've caused. And the local Swedish energy experts seem to agree with me.

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

You forgot to explain why price signals were bad and 'artificial'? I know nothing about Sweden, but: > https://www.thelocal.se/20220824/explained-whos-telling-the-truth-about-electricity-in-swedens-election/ https://www.thelocal.se/20220824/explained-whos-telling-the-... > “I think it’s simply political,” Nilsson says. “The conservative parties are hoping to gain votes by bringing up the nuclear issue. I don’t think they seriously think that we will build new nuclear in Sweden. Everyone knows that it’s terribly expensive and takes a very long time.” > Söder agrees: “The right-wing parties (Sweden Democrats, Moderates, Christian Democrats and Liberals) have nuclear power as a common interest where they can show unity. There are also several communities where wind power resistance has become significant, and by stating ‘we think it was stupid to shut down Ringhals’, they can attract voters – even if this will not in any way solve the long-term challenges in Sweden, which is to build a lot of new power production as cheaply as possible.” > It’s also worth noting that the Energiforsk report estimated that power prices would have been 35–50 percent lower if Sweden had opened an additional large, offshore windfarm off the coast of southern Sweden. So it appears there was need for my "right-wing" comment after all. I must be psychic.

the_third_wave 4y ago
A "price signal" is artificial when the market is manipulated to set the price artificially as is done in Sweden where electricity prices in the south are tied to the European market while those in the north are not. This leads to extreme differences in price based exclusively on where you happen to live. In some cases people will pay 20-30 times more for the same electricity than their neighbours who happen to just live on the other side of the region. Should I call this type of manipulation "left-wing" to counter your "right-wing" accusations? State-controlled markets are after all a "left-wing" phenomenon. But no, I won´t since I deem this type of polarised discussion counterproductive. On the subject of building nuclear power plants it is clear to everyone and his dog that the reason why building new plants is expensive and takes a long time lies in the policies put in place by the same people who claim that building nuclear power plants is too expensive and takes too much time. The "wind farm" argument is just as hollow since it is not the lack of "wind farms" which has driven up the price of electricity but the fact that those same people closed down 6 fully operational nuclear plants, thereby creating an electricity shortage in the south of the country which has led to an enormous increase in the use of fossil fuel-powered plants - the same plants they accuse of causing "climate change". Top load plants which used to only be needed in extreme circumstances - severe cold snaps in the middle of winter - are now needed on a regular basis to keep the net frequency from sagging below 48.5 Hz.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  That's not artificial. There are literal physical reasons why the prices in different markets are different. The transmission capacity is the limiting factor. Why do you think those are left-wing and artificial? Wind has been the cheapest source of energy in Europe for over a decade, yet the Swedish right-wing are against it. As long as the power plant has decent pollution controls and the carbon is taxed I don't really have an issue with it. That provides a clear price signal to build more cheap renewables, like wind. Unless you are against that, like the Swedish right-wing parties. Which doesn't really give me any confidence that they're doing the smart things to solve this 'problem' they've caused. And the local Swedish energy experts seem to agree with me.