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Why would CloudFlare have any responsibility for the use of their services in this way? Do you expect the power company to cut off power to that forum? The wat

Why would CloudFlare have any responsibility for the use of their services in this way? Do you expect the power company to cut off power to that forum? The water company? How about the power and water companies cutting power to known members of the forum, to "fight against targeted harassment and murder"?

pavlov 4y ago
Power and water companies are utilities. I don't think Cloudflare would want to be categorized that way, as it comes with massive regulation.
- simiones 4y ago
  Sure, but that is a technical legal issue. If the GP wishes to disrupt the business of some other organization that has not been proven in a court of law to break any laws, they should be logically consistent and ask for this cessation of business not just from CloudFlare, but from every company; that the utilities are legally barred from cutting service in this way is secondary.
  - pavlov 4y ago
    That's a strange definition of logical consistency: asking for something you know to be possible is conditional on also asking for something that you know to be impossible.
viraptor 4y ago
Cloudflare is not a regulated provider of essential services / utilities. Right from their tos: "We may at our sole discretion suspend or terminate your access to the Websites and/or Online Services at any time, with or without notice for any reason or no reason at all." (and they have done so before)
- simiones 4y ago
  So? Are you arguing that it is good for a company to have and wield this kind of power to attack other organizations that it believes are engaging in conduct they don't like? Or has Kiwi Farms been shown in a court of law to have engaged in the behavior you describe?
  - viraptor 4y ago
    Yes. At some point you've got to ask yourself if you're making the world a worse place with your decisions, even if everything is technically legal. And then decide if you want to change it or not.
    - slibhb 4y ago
      People don't agree about which decisions make the world worse.
      - woodruffw 4y ago
        To a vanishing degree, most people agree that hosting a site that encourages vulnerable people to kill themselves (and each other) makes the world worse. That's the context here, not a site debating the merits of different dog breeds.
        jacobr1 4y ago
        It is a broader consideration. It is easy to decide to stop servicing murderers, nazis, and other widely derided groups, especially on a one-off basis whenever objections are raised. It is another thing to actively investigate your customer base and police them. There are industries where this absolutely should happen. And there are others where we probably are better off with a laissez-faire approach (my local grocery is not a regulated utility, but I think they should still roughly operate that way - serve anyone who comes in the door). Cloudflare needs to have a clear TOS, and remove this site for violating it. But we should still be cautious about how broad a TOS it might be, what evidence is required, what due-process and appeals are available. Every other day there is some post on HN saying "Big Service provider shut down my site overnight without warning!" but that is consequence anti-abuse systems policing customer activity and badly implemented systems are going to have negative consequences. The obvious cases make it seems easier than it actually is to build fair systems.

pavlov 4y ago

Power and water companies are utilities. I don't think Cloudflare would want to be categorized that way, as it comes with massive regulation.

simiones 4y ago
Sure, but that is a technical legal issue. If the GP wishes to disrupt the business of some other organization that has not been proven in a court of law to break any laws, they should be logically consistent and ask for this cessation of business not just from CloudFlare, but from every company; that the utilities are legally barred from cutting service in this way is secondary.
- pavlov 4y ago
  That's a strange definition of logical consistency: asking for something you know to be possible is conditional on also asking for something that you know to be impossible.

viraptor 4y ago

Cloudflare is not a regulated provider of essential services / utilities. Right from their tos: "We may at our sole discretion suspend or terminate your access to the Websites and/or Online Services at any time, with or without notice for any reason or no reason at all." (and they have done so before)

simiones 4y ago
So? Are you arguing that it is good for a company to have and wield this kind of power to attack other organizations that it believes are engaging in conduct they don't like? Or has Kiwi Farms been shown in a court of law to have engaged in the behavior you describe?
- viraptor 4y ago
  Yes. At some point you've got to ask yourself if you're making the world a worse place with your decisions, even if everything is technically legal. And then decide if you want to change it or not.
  - slibhb 4y ago
    People don't agree about which decisions make the world worse.
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      To a vanishing degree, most people agree that hosting a site that encourages vulnerable people to kill themselves (and each other) makes the world worse. That's the context here, not a site debating the merits of different dog breeds.
      - jacobr1 4y ago
        It is a broader consideration. It is easy to decide to stop servicing murderers, nazis, and other widely derided groups, especially on a one-off basis whenever objections are raised. It is another thing to actively investigate your customer base and police them. There are industries where this absolutely should happen. And there are others where we probably are better off with a laissez-faire approach (my local grocery is not a regulated utility, but I think they should still roughly operate that way - serve anyone who comes in the door). Cloudflare needs to have a clear TOS, and remove this site for violating it. But we should still be cautious about how broad a TOS it might be, what evidence is required, what due-process and appeals are available. Every other day there is some post on HN saying "Big Service provider shut down my site overnight without warning!" but that is consequence anti-abuse systems policing customer activity and badly implemented systems are going to have negative consequences. The obvious cases make it seems easier than it actually is to build fair systems.