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Future blog idea: How Cloudflare stood up for KiwiFarms

by yellow_lead 4y ago

swarnie 4y ago
NZ Farm keeps coming up on Reddit but no one has actually explained what its a reference to. ??
- bpoyner 4y ago
  I'm assuming that's a joke, but for anybody who hasn't managed to hear of Kiwi Farms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms
  - Semaphor 4y ago
    > I'm assuming that's a joke I’d say too lazy to google. Because I have never heard of them anywhere before, not exactly widespread outsides of some sites (but I googled them).
    - swarnie 4y ago
      Pops straight up if you know what to search for....
  - swarnie 4y ago
    Not a joke, i honestly dont know why people have been referencing NZ farm land.... > an American Internet forum dedicated to the discussion of online figures and communities it deems "lolcows" (people who can be "milked for laughs"). The targets of threads are often subject to doxing and other forms of organized group trolling, harassment, and stalking, including real-life harassment by users. You know, funnily enough, not exactly in my regular browsing habits so im extremely sorry for not knowing.
    - pseudo0 4y ago
      Some people have claimed that their reddit accounts were banned after linking to the site or referencing it directly, hence the use of various nicknames and euphemisms.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - LegitShady 4y ago
    It's not a joke - it's a way to talk about things without being searchable or appearing on Google alerts. I see it all the time on various twitter threads discussing 'bad people'. Saying their name let's them find out you're saying it so they find a nickname or moniker to use instead.
- charcircuit 4y ago
  The kiwi in kiwi farms has nothing to do with New Zealand. It was derived from how CWCki is pronounced.
  - swarnie 4y ago
    And this is why i was unable to locate any information about it or its context. Its pretty normal to change the name of something slightly on reddit to avoid the attention of banning bots while still conveying the original meaning.
- shitlord 4y ago
  You can’t really explain it because the domain is censored across the entire site.
maeln 4y ago
For those who don't know KiwiFarm is a far-right forum that organized harassment campaign against many individual, especially trans developer. Some of their victims have committed suicide after years of harassment. Most notably Near, famous in the emulation community and Chloe Sagal, an indy game developer. CloudFlare continue to host them despite all.
- unsignednoop 4y ago
  Any proof about being far-right? Looks like the claim was only added to wiki today. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kiwi_Farms&type=revision&diff=1106535664&oldid=1106427863 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kiwi_Farms&type=r...
  - maeln 4y ago
    You can literally go on the forum and read it if you need any proof.
    - convery 4y ago
      Just did, the latest featured thread is laughing about a Republicans silly statements. Seems to have no issues criticising both the left and the right..
      - oats 4y ago
        Oh ok then, I forgot that there aren't people who are further right-wing than the Republican party...
        convery 4y ago
        You said to read the forum, I did. Saw no comments about politics, threads of people laughing at both sides of the political spectrum (with the majority of threads being apolitical). So where's these 'far-right' people hiding?
mhuffman 4y ago
I'd prefer that Cloudflare, or any other highly used web infrastructure, not be used as a speech/thought gatekeeping weapon and just stick to blocking things that are illegal only.
- maeln 4y ago
  Harassment and hate speech is illegal in many country in the world.
  - mhuffman 4y ago
    But not in the United States. Hate speech at least, and harassment is a bit murky these days anyway. Swatting is certainly harassment, but is making fun of someone for being odd? Imagine for a moment that Cloudflare leans in and starts doing this. Then, let's image a DeSantis Presidency, with a full hard-right Senate, House, and majority SC soon. Now, imagine what those people feel like is harassing them. 90% of Twitter posts would likely qualify. Half of the post on this very site. Most of Reddit. Then they start passing laws that you can't pick and choose. If you are a piece of infrastructure that is gatekeeping what someone felt was hate-speech or harassement yesterday, well then you have to do it today.
    - DangitBobby 4y ago
      > but is making fun of someone for being odd It becomes much less murky after repeated and individually targeted "making fun". If it's made clear that you want them to leave you alone and they choose to persist, it becomes crystal clear.
      - mhuffman 4y ago
        >If it's made clear that you want them to leave you alone and they choose to persist, it becomes crystal clear. Let's say I buy your premise (I don't completely) but where does it stop? Does it include Trump? What about non-public figures only, but ones you probably don't like, for example White supremacists or neo-Nazis? Does it count against corporations? And who gets to decide if you are making fun of someone? Just someone is offended or feeling hurt? If that is the metric then I defy you to write an English sentence that I can't turn into an oppressive, smart-ass remark about someone. I am being a little hyperbolic here, but surely you see how any move to limit speech outside of literal threats or similar can just be used the opposite way round.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
mrshadowgoose 4y ago
No thanks. KiwiFarms is disgusting, but I'm not at all interested in having corporations voluntarily enforce "correct" worldviews. The meaning of "correct" is highly dependent on who you talk to, and is frequently perverted when corporate profitability is involved.
- mhoad 4y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms This isn’t a couple of bad takes. It’s coordinated harassment against already vulnerable people where the aim is to get them to kill themselves which they have successfully done on numerous occasions. Cloudflare doesn’t need to protect them under some vaguely defined free speech argument.
  - mrshadowgoose 4y ago
    Thanks...I've already done my background reading. The individuals who committed crimes should be tracked down and prosecuted. However, I still have zero desire for cloudflare and other tech companies to suppress "incorrect" ideas or communities. I am completely fine with tolerating disgusting people being allowed to communicate, when the alternative is corporations maliciously lording over speech to maximize their profit margins. Even in abscence of that tradeoff, I have no desire to suppress other people's "wrong" opinions, because I acknowledge that "wrong" is completely subjective and variable between groups of people. Maybe you think this makes me a bad person from your point-of-view, and I respect your right to have and express that viewpoint.
    - mhoad 4y ago
      Yeah I’m not going to pretend that I think that’s a reasonable or respectable opinion. No point continuing the conversation. Have a good one.

Future blog idea: How Cloudflare stood up for KiwiFarms

swarnie 4y ago

NZ Farm keeps coming up on Reddit but no one has actually explained what its a reference to. ??

bpoyner 4y ago
I'm assuming that's a joke, but for anybody who hasn't managed to hear of Kiwi Farms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms
- Semaphor 4y ago
  > I'm assuming that's a joke I’d say too lazy to google. Because I have never heard of them anywhere before, not exactly widespread outsides of some sites (but I googled them).
  - swarnie 4y ago
    Pops straight up if you know what to search for....
- swarnie 4y ago
  Not a joke, i honestly dont know why people have been referencing NZ farm land.... > an American Internet forum dedicated to the discussion of online figures and communities it deems "lolcows" (people who can be "milked for laughs"). The targets of threads are often subject to doxing and other forms of organized group trolling, harassment, and stalking, including real-life harassment by users. You know, funnily enough, not exactly in my regular browsing habits so im extremely sorry for not knowing.
  - pseudo0 4y ago
    Some people have claimed that their reddit accounts were banned after linking to the site or referencing it directly, hence the use of various nicknames and euphemisms.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- LegitShady 4y ago
  It's not a joke - it's a way to talk about things without being searchable or appearing on Google alerts. I see it all the time on various twitter threads discussing 'bad people'. Saying their name let's them find out you're saying it so they find a nickname or moniker to use instead.
charcircuit 4y ago
The kiwi in kiwi farms has nothing to do with New Zealand. It was derived from how CWCki is pronounced.
- swarnie 4y ago
  And this is why i was unable to locate any information about it or its context. Its pretty normal to change the name of something slightly on reddit to avoid the attention of banning bots while still conveying the original meaning.
shitlord 4y ago
You can’t really explain it because the domain is censored across the entire site.

maeln 4y ago

For those who don't know KiwiFarm is a far-right forum that organized harassment campaign against many individual, especially trans developer. Some of their victims have committed suicide after years of harassment. Most notably Near, famous in the emulation community and Chloe Sagal, an indy game developer. CloudFlare continue to host them despite all.

unsignednoop 4y ago
Any proof about being far-right? Looks like the claim was only added to wiki today. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kiwi_Farms&type=revision&diff=1106535664&oldid=1106427863 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kiwi_Farms&type=r...
- maeln 4y ago
  You can literally go on the forum and read it if you need any proof.
  - convery 4y ago
    Just did, the latest featured thread is laughing about a Republicans silly statements. Seems to have no issues criticising both the left and the right..
    - oats 4y ago
      Oh ok then, I forgot that there aren't people who are further right-wing than the Republican party...
      - convery 4y ago
        You said to read the forum, I did. Saw no comments about politics, threads of people laughing at both sides of the political spectrum (with the majority of threads being apolitical). So where's these 'far-right' people hiding?

mhuffman 4y ago

I'd prefer that Cloudflare, or any other highly used web infrastructure, not be used as a speech/thought gatekeeping weapon and just stick to blocking things that are illegal only.

maeln 4y ago
Harassment and hate speech is illegal in many country in the world.
- mhuffman 4y ago
  But not in the United States. Hate speech at least, and harassment is a bit murky these days anyway. Swatting is certainly harassment, but is making fun of someone for being odd? Imagine for a moment that Cloudflare leans in and starts doing this. Then, let's image a DeSantis Presidency, with a full hard-right Senate, House, and majority SC soon. Now, imagine what those people feel like is harassing them. 90% of Twitter posts would likely qualify. Half of the post on this very site. Most of Reddit. Then they start passing laws that you can't pick and choose. If you are a piece of infrastructure that is gatekeeping what someone felt was hate-speech or harassement yesterday, well then you have to do it today.
  - DangitBobby 4y ago
    > but is making fun of someone for being odd It becomes much less murky after repeated and individually targeted "making fun". If it's made clear that you want them to leave you alone and they choose to persist, it becomes crystal clear.
    - mhuffman 4y ago
      >If it's made clear that you want them to leave you alone and they choose to persist, it becomes crystal clear. Let's say I buy your premise (I don't completely) but where does it stop? Does it include Trump? What about non-public figures only, but ones you probably don't like, for example White supremacists or neo-Nazis? Does it count against corporations? And who gets to decide if you are making fun of someone? Just someone is offended or feeling hurt? If that is the metric then I defy you to write an English sentence that I can't turn into an oppressive, smart-ass remark about someone. I am being a little hyperbolic here, but surely you see how any move to limit speech outside of literal threats or similar can just be used the opposite way round.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

mrshadowgoose 4y ago

No thanks. KiwiFarms is disgusting, but I'm not at all interested in having corporations voluntarily enforce "correct" worldviews. The meaning of "correct" is highly dependent on who you talk to, and is frequently perverted when corporate profitability is involved.

mhoad 4y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms This isn’t a couple of bad takes. It’s coordinated harassment against already vulnerable people where the aim is to get them to kill themselves which they have successfully done on numerous occasions. Cloudflare doesn’t need to protect them under some vaguely defined free speech argument.
- mrshadowgoose 4y ago
  Thanks...I've already done my background reading. The individuals who committed crimes should be tracked down and prosecuted. However, I still have zero desire for cloudflare and other tech companies to suppress "incorrect" ideas or communities. I am completely fine with tolerating disgusting people being allowed to communicate, when the alternative is corporations maliciously lording over speech to maximize their profit margins. Even in abscence of that tradeoff, I have no desire to suppress other people's "wrong" opinions, because I acknowledge that "wrong" is completely subjective and variable between groups of people. Maybe you think this makes me a bad person from your point-of-view, and I respect your right to have and express that viewpoint.
  - mhoad 4y ago
    Yeah I’m not going to pretend that I think that’s a reasonable or respectable opinion. No point continuing the conversation. Have a good one.