9 ms·

Murder attempts and harassment? Please elaborate.

viraptor 4y ago
One of cloudflare's customers is a forum known for repeatedly organising swatting, which in practice is a murder attempt (in the US anyway) and other nastiness. Cloudflare seems ok with that, but recently there's more pressure on them. So far only radio silence from the management like Prince and JGrahamC. Check out https://twitter.com/stealthygeek/status/1485731083534667779 https://twitter.com/stealthygeek/status/1485731083534667779 for a longer story for example. It's been an ongoing issue for quite a while but in the last few days there seems to be some effort to make them not ignore it and spread the knowledge.
- thegeomaster 4y ago
  If the customer is doing something illegal, it should be the job of law enforcement to judge on that and stop them, not a CDN company.
- geowwy 4y ago
  - viraptor 4y ago
    Sure, they just dox specific people and the same people coincidentally get swatted by completely unrelated individuals. Also, I've got a bridge to sell you...
  - blackearl 4y ago
    Making fun of people should be illegal?
    - sascha_sl 4y ago
      "making fun" is putting it lightly. They will dig through your accounts, archive everything you say, interpret it the worst way possible. And if that doesn't work, they'll also sometimes outright make shit up (also known as defamation). Usually, for trans people, some groomer narrative is established. It's essentially high grade stochastic terrorism. They hand you a gun and tell you where to aim, but then get upset when someone implies they encourage pulling the trigger. Those affected also don't often talk about it, because it encourages even more harassment.
      - bauruine 4y ago
        >They will dig through your accounts, archive everything you say, interpret it the worst way possible. This sounds exactly like what the Twitter "good guys" do all the time to cancel people.
        sascha_sl 4y ago
        Your false equivalence doesn't interest me. This "but the others are just as bad, therefore it's okay" mentality that has almost become an ideological reflex really needs to be added to the things HN considers bad contributions. I could feed an ebooks bot HN comments and get these exact words out.
      - psyc 4y ago
        If people make things up, they're doing so against the written rules. I'd link to it, but the site is under a DDoS attack being very proudly and loudly organized by an individual they believe fits said narrative. The gist is: "[Stick to what you can document, that's more than funny enough.] Misinformation is not welcome here." The un-bracketed part is verbatim if memory serves. Narrative is a tricky thing. Neither side of the controversy would exist without their narratives.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - arez 4y ago
    how is that different to 4chan?
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    So Cloudflare provides CDN services for a forum that has content that (in some opinions) should be illegal (but probably isn’t) and, on that basis, Cloudflare should refuse them service? I’d hope to live a world where Cloudflare would host speech that I like and agree with and speech that I disagree with on equal terms. (If it’s legal, the bits flow.) I literally do not want opinions different from my own to be silenced.
  - Vaslo 4y ago
    Actually I’m pretty sure you should be allowed to make fun of any subject at any time, even if in very poor taste. That’s not your call or the government’s.
- simiones 4y ago
  It would be outrageous for CloudFlare to cut off service to this company/organization or its members over simple allegations, or anything short of a court order, wouldn't it? Surely you can understand this?
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    > It would be outrageous for CloudFlare to cut off service to this company/organization or its members over simple allegations The behavior of Kiwifarms and their users has been documented often and deep enough to say that this is no longer a "he said they said" territory.
    - simiones 4y ago
      So if enough people believe OJ killed his ex-wife, we should shun him from society because it's no longer in "he said they said" territory? The rule of law and due process are important factors. While you are personally free to refuse your own business to anyone based on any criteria you like, demanding and expecting others to do so based on what is ultimately hearsay is pure entitlement.
      - mschuster91 4y ago
        It is not too much to expect of a dozens-of-billions-of-dollars worth multinational corporation to conduct an investigation based on that "hearsay" and to react on that investigation. Operating a global business does not absolve the business from the need to prevent harm caused by it, in fact some form of abuse management has been expected from any good Internet citizen since its inception, e.g. in Usenet [0] or e-mail in general [1]. Or for a real-life equivalent: if I were to stand outside of the home of a person and blaring into a megaphone that she deserve to die... I'd at least get the cops called on me for a noise violation or a harassment charge, and if I were to incite others or coordinate their behavior, I would get a conspiracy charge. Why should Internet trolls enjoy legal protection for the same behavior? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet_Death_Penalty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet_Death_Penalty [1] https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2142.txt https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2142.txt

One of cloudflare's customers is a forum known for repeatedly organising swatting, which in practice is a murder attempt (in the US anyway) and other nastiness. Cloudflare seems ok with that, but recently there's more pressure on them. So far only radio silence from the management like Prince and JGrahamC. Check out https://twitter.com/stealthygeek/status/1485731083534667779 https://twitter.com/stealthygeek/status/1485731083534667779 for a longer story for example. It's been an ongoing issue for quite a while but in the last few days there seems to be some effort to make them not ignore it and spread the knowledge.

thegeomaster 4y ago
If the customer is doing something illegal, it should be the job of law enforcement to judge on that and stop them, not a CDN company.
geowwy 4y ago
- viraptor 4y ago
  Sure, they just dox specific people and the same people coincidentally get swatted by completely unrelated individuals. Also, I've got a bridge to sell you...
- blackearl 4y ago
  Making fun of people should be illegal?
  - sascha_sl 4y ago
    "making fun" is putting it lightly. They will dig through your accounts, archive everything you say, interpret it the worst way possible. And if that doesn't work, they'll also sometimes outright make shit up (also known as defamation). Usually, for trans people, some groomer narrative is established. It's essentially high grade stochastic terrorism. They hand you a gun and tell you where to aim, but then get upset when someone implies they encourage pulling the trigger. Those affected also don't often talk about it, because it encourages even more harassment.
    - bauruine 4y ago
      >They will dig through your accounts, archive everything you say, interpret it the worst way possible. This sounds exactly like what the Twitter "good guys" do all the time to cancel people.
      - sascha_sl 4y ago
        Your false equivalence doesn't interest me. This "but the others are just as bad, therefore it's okay" mentality that has almost become an ideological reflex really needs to be added to the things HN considers bad contributions. I could feed an ebooks bot HN comments and get these exact words out.
    - psyc 4y ago
      If people make things up, they're doing so against the written rules. I'd link to it, but the site is under a DDoS attack being very proudly and loudly organized by an individual they believe fits said narrative. The gist is: "[Stick to what you can document, that's more than funny enough.] Misinformation is not welcome here." The un-bracketed part is verbatim if memory serves. Narrative is a tricky thing. Neither side of the controversy would exist without their narratives.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- arez 4y ago
  how is that different to 4chan?
- sokoloff 4y ago
  So Cloudflare provides CDN services for a forum that has content that (in some opinions) should be illegal (but probably isn’t) and, on that basis, Cloudflare should refuse them service? I’d hope to live a world where Cloudflare would host speech that I like and agree with and speech that I disagree with on equal terms. (If it’s legal, the bits flow.) I literally do not want opinions different from my own to be silenced.
- Vaslo 4y ago
  Actually I’m pretty sure you should be allowed to make fun of any subject at any time, even if in very poor taste. That’s not your call or the government’s.
simiones 4y ago
It would be outrageous for CloudFlare to cut off service to this company/organization or its members over simple allegations, or anything short of a court order, wouldn't it? Surely you can understand this?
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > It would be outrageous for CloudFlare to cut off service to this company/organization or its members over simple allegations The behavior of Kiwifarms and their users has been documented often and deep enough to say that this is no longer a "he said they said" territory.
  - simiones 4y ago
    So if enough people believe OJ killed his ex-wife, we should shun him from society because it's no longer in "he said they said" territory? The rule of law and due process are important factors. While you are personally free to refuse your own business to anyone based on any criteria you like, demanding and expecting others to do so based on what is ultimately hearsay is pure entitlement.
    - mschuster91 4y ago
      It is not too much to expect of a dozens-of-billions-of-dollars worth multinational corporation to conduct an investigation based on that "hearsay" and to react on that investigation. Operating a global business does not absolve the business from the need to prevent harm caused by it, in fact some form of abuse management has been expected from any good Internet citizen since its inception, e.g. in Usenet [0] or e-mail in general [1]. Or for a real-life equivalent: if I were to stand outside of the home of a person and blaring into a megaphone that she deserve to die... I'd at least get the cops called on me for a noise violation or a harassment charge, and if I were to incite others or coordinate their behavior, I would get a conspiracy charge. Why should Internet trolls enjoy legal protection for the same behavior? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet_Death_Penalty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet_Death_Penalty [1] https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2142.txt https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2142.txt