9 ms·

It seems like it should be straightforward to pull out any cell radios, no? I've removed them from cell phones with ease, and I have to think the larger size of

It seems like it should be straightforward to pull out any cell radios, no? I've removed them from cell phones with ease, and I have to think the larger size of a car would lend itself to this being easy.

dinom 4y ago
You're making terrible assumptions here. The fact is you'll need special tools and then you'll need to follow a special procedure as if you're defusing a bomb. Otherwise... the radio will phone home and inform the mother-ship it's being tampered with. The prima facie reason is that in case of an accident the car should be able to request help even if everyone inside the car is unconscious. The other reason is, of course, that document you signed at the dealership stated that you've only purchased the _right_to_use_ the car... not the actual car. Have fun with your rental :-) You should have read the fine print.
- samatman 4y ago
  You made all that up. Why?
  - dinom 4y ago
    I didn't make any of that up.... have you ever removed an onstar unit from a vehicle? Did you ever try to install linux on an xbox360? Radios these days are software defined. They can sit on the same chip that uses a trusted bootloader and also provides an engine control module. Marketing departments can and will bend and pervert engineering specifications to highlight the consumer benefits and minimize the profit motive. QED
    - pjerem 4y ago
      You know that radios can be as software defined they want, they are still requiring antennas.
      - dinom 4y ago
        I do know that. But... Assuming you can even get to the antenna without special tools... you're just going to cut the antenna so short that the radio can't get a signal? On a hunch? What if the SOC in your vehicle has to download a rolling encryption key every week in order to activate?
        Slaminerag 4y ago
        There are plenty of parts of the US with really poor cell coverage. Even if everything's working perfectly, there's no guarantee that your car can update. Having a car die because it couldn't phone home is both a lawsuit waiting to happen and a potential PR nightmare.
        cguess 4y ago
        Unfortunately some cars still do it https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24754662 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24754662
        dinom 4y ago
        What about satellite? What if the ping isn't time based but mileage based... what are the odds you drive 500-1000 miles without passing a cell-site? The car doesn't have to go completely dead either. It can go into a "limp mode" or just have features disabled. Going back and forth with measures and counter-measures besmirches the point. Cars have to be serviced and this may be considered just another aspect of it. I'm not suggesting that this sort of thing is necessarily a good thing(tm) but, it may be viewed as such by some and it's possible. Isn't it the consumer's prerogative and responsibility to decide? Not to mention, lawsuits and PR nightmares can be factored into a business case analysis. VW actually went ahead and defrauded the US government in diesel-gate and they're still an almost $100 billion company.
- vladtheimpala 4y ago
  > The other reason is, of course, that document you signed at the dealership stated that you've only purchased the _right_to_use_ the car... not the actual car. I can assure you that (in the US at least) when you buy a car, pay off any financing, and ultimately hold the title free and clear, you do in fact own the car.
  - ericmay 4y ago
    Right to repair advocates should be focusing on this too. Companies should have to provide a mechanism for disabling telemetry data (or some variation of this that I think we could discuss and identify) or provide opt-out that doesn’t affect other features of the vehicle so companies can’t play games.
  - dinom 4y ago
    I don't dispute that. But, I don't think owning the title means the car needs to be fully operational. Titles to ratty, broken down, cars are bought and sold every day... aren't they? And, just because it's shiny doesn't mean it's a great car either. It could be a great sculpture. I think the issues at play here are more about service and warranty contracts as well as buyer expectations. Having the title just means I own a giant hunk of metal and plastic, no?
StanislavPetrov 4y ago
On newer cars most every component from your tires to your rear window defroster phones home about your activity.
- Ancalagon 4y ago
  The tires, really?? I figured maybe the wheels but the tires?
  - dinom 4y ago
    Why not the tires? New cars come with tire pressure sensors and tire pressure plays a big role in fuel efficiency as well as safety. It's just a few more bits of info. Anything that has a remote chance of making more profit than the competitor will be attempted. Even if it's morally questionable... moral != legal. Heck, VW even threw legality out the window with emissions shenanigans a few years ago. I'm not arguing that it's wrong or right... it's just the entrepreneur's duty to try and the consumer's obligation to keep things in check. Caveat emptor.
    - withinboredom 4y ago
      I think they were making a joke. You’re talking about the wheels. The tires are just the rubber part on the outside of the wheels.
      - dinom 4y ago
        Could be. That said... the sensor is generally referred to as a "tire pressure" sensor, not a "wheel pressure" sensor. No sense in nit-picking though. The point is they'd put a fart detector in the cabin (and send that data to the mother-ship too) if they thought it would be profitable. :-)
      - femto 4y ago
        https://rfid.michelin.com/what-is-rfid/ https://rfid.michelin.com/what-is-rfid/ It's not a complete joke. Lots of tyres contain RFID chips for inventory control. Michelin consider it's an asset that the "Tire tag can be read even when the tire is moving or rolling" --- Edit: Just realised that "Someone" posted the same comment 4 hours ago.
coin 4y ago
Those cell radios might be buried deep in the circuitry
windowsrookie 4y ago
Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep Vehicles prior to 2016 used Sprint's 3G CDMA network. That network is now shutdown so they no longer can connect. The same thing will happen for all current vehicles when cellular providers eventually start shutting down 4G networks. That's why fortunately for now, all vehicles can still function properly without a network connection. I do suspect that someday that will change tho.

dinom 4y ago

You're making terrible assumptions here. The fact is you'll need special tools and then you'll need to follow a special procedure as if you're defusing a bomb. Otherwise... the radio will phone home and inform the mother-ship it's being tampered with. The prima facie reason is that in case of an accident the car should be able to request help even if everyone inside the car is unconscious. The other reason is, of course, that document you signed at the dealership stated that you've only purchased the _right_to_use_ the car... not the actual car. Have fun with your rental :-) You should have read the fine print.

samatman 4y ago
You made all that up. Why?
- dinom 4y ago
  I didn't make any of that up.... have you ever removed an onstar unit from a vehicle? Did you ever try to install linux on an xbox360? Radios these days are software defined. They can sit on the same chip that uses a trusted bootloader and also provides an engine control module. Marketing departments can and will bend and pervert engineering specifications to highlight the consumer benefits and minimize the profit motive. QED
  - pjerem 4y ago
    You know that radios can be as software defined they want, they are still requiring antennas.
    - dinom 4y ago
      I do know that. But... Assuming you can even get to the antenna without special tools... you're just going to cut the antenna so short that the radio can't get a signal? On a hunch? What if the SOC in your vehicle has to download a rolling encryption key every week in order to activate?
      - Slaminerag 4y ago
        There are plenty of parts of the US with really poor cell coverage. Even if everything's working perfectly, there's no guarantee that your car can update. Having a car die because it couldn't phone home is both a lawsuit waiting to happen and a potential PR nightmare.
        cguess 4y ago
        Unfortunately some cars still do it https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24754662 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24754662
        dinom 4y ago
        What about satellite? What if the ping isn't time based but mileage based... what are the odds you drive 500-1000 miles without passing a cell-site? The car doesn't have to go completely dead either. It can go into a "limp mode" or just have features disabled. Going back and forth with measures and counter-measures besmirches the point. Cars have to be serviced and this may be considered just another aspect of it. I'm not suggesting that this sort of thing is necessarily a good thing(tm) but, it may be viewed as such by some and it's possible. Isn't it the consumer's prerogative and responsibility to decide? Not to mention, lawsuits and PR nightmares can be factored into a business case analysis. VW actually went ahead and defrauded the US government in diesel-gate and they're still an almost $100 billion company.
vladtheimpala 4y ago
> The other reason is, of course, that document you signed at the dealership stated that you've only purchased the _right_to_use_ the car... not the actual car. I can assure you that (in the US at least) when you buy a car, pay off any financing, and ultimately hold the title free and clear, you do in fact own the car.
- ericmay 4y ago
  Right to repair advocates should be focusing on this too. Companies should have to provide a mechanism for disabling telemetry data (or some variation of this that I think we could discuss and identify) or provide opt-out that doesn’t affect other features of the vehicle so companies can’t play games.
- dinom 4y ago
  I don't dispute that. But, I don't think owning the title means the car needs to be fully operational. Titles to ratty, broken down, cars are bought and sold every day... aren't they? And, just because it's shiny doesn't mean it's a great car either. It could be a great sculpture. I think the issues at play here are more about service and warranty contracts as well as buyer expectations. Having the title just means I own a giant hunk of metal and plastic, no?

StanislavPetrov 4y ago

On newer cars most every component from your tires to your rear window defroster phones home about your activity.

Ancalagon 4y ago
The tires, really?? I figured maybe the wheels but the tires?
- dinom 4y ago
  Why not the tires? New cars come with tire pressure sensors and tire pressure plays a big role in fuel efficiency as well as safety. It's just a few more bits of info. Anything that has a remote chance of making more profit than the competitor will be attempted. Even if it's morally questionable... moral != legal. Heck, VW even threw legality out the window with emissions shenanigans a few years ago. I'm not arguing that it's wrong or right... it's just the entrepreneur's duty to try and the consumer's obligation to keep things in check. Caveat emptor.
  - withinboredom 4y ago
    I think they were making a joke. You’re talking about the wheels. The tires are just the rubber part on the outside of the wheels.
    - dinom 4y ago
      Could be. That said... the sensor is generally referred to as a "tire pressure" sensor, not a "wheel pressure" sensor. No sense in nit-picking though. The point is they'd put a fart detector in the cabin (and send that data to the mother-ship too) if they thought it would be profitable. :-)
    - femto 4y ago
      https://rfid.michelin.com/what-is-rfid/ https://rfid.michelin.com/what-is-rfid/ It's not a complete joke. Lots of tyres contain RFID chips for inventory control. Michelin consider it's an asset that the "Tire tag can be read even when the tire is moving or rolling" --- Edit: Just realised that "Someone" posted the same comment 4 hours ago.

coin 4y ago

Those cell radios might be buried deep in the circuitry

windowsrookie 4y ago

Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep Vehicles prior to 2016 used Sprint's 3G CDMA network. That network is now shutdown so they no longer can connect. The same thing will happen for all current vehicles when cellular providers eventually start shutting down 4G networks. That's why fortunately for now, all vehicles can still function properly without a network connection. I do suspect that someday that will change tho.