5 ms·

> Science skepticism has always been a thing; its only in recent years though that internet has allowed the rapid spread of disinformation. Glossy content creat

> Science skepticism has always been a thing; its only in recent years though that internet has allowed the rapid spread of disinformation. Glossy content created for misinforming Americans inspires copycats in other countries. It’s really depressing. It may be depressing, but it's not helpful to associate it with "science skepticism". The vaccine "hesitant" you refer to are not skeptical of science. They freely use the language and processes of science as their argument. You or I may think they misuse the language, make unconvincing assumptions, etc, but there's nothing to it that's skeptical of science. Where vaccine hesitancy is rooted in science skepticism, you see the hesitant relying on alternative means of knowing why vaccines aren't right for them. You can think of the classic faith healing communities l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶C̶h̶r̶i̶s̶t̶i̶a̶n̶ ̶S̶c̶i̶e̶n̶t̶i̶s̶t̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶J̶e̶h̶o̶v̶a̶h̶'̶s̶ ̶W̶i̶t̶n̶e̶s̶s̶e̶s̶ as an example of that. The contagious skepticism that you're talking about is of institutions and authority. They don't trust Fauci or the CDC or the WHO or Pfizer or whomever to to communicate honestly, objectively, and in their own interests. They believe that these institutions can not be trusted to communicate scientific knowledge free of political bias. And when you look at it that way, of course America is the exporter of that. While responsible for founding some impressive modern institutions, the founding myth of the nation is all about skepticism of institution and authority. The country is constitutionally designed to live in perpetual tension with itself, and that's what's getting exported now.

retox 4y ago
Can you expand on what you mean by 'The country is constitutionally designed to live in perpetual tension with itself'? Let's also not lose sight of the fake vaccine operation run by the CIA in Pakistan to catch Bin Laden. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vaccinations-osama-bin-ladens-dna https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vacci...
- miguelazo 4y ago
  Thank you-- the CIA's fake vaccine operation should be in the first or second paragraph of every article that discusses polio outbreaks. It has had a huge effect on public health.
- swatcoder 4y ago
  The Declaration of Independence and Constitution establish that all governments are vulnerable to becoming tyrannical, and the Bill of Rights establishes that people have specific rights that supersede the sovereign bodies that govern them. It insists on the government providing allowance for rights that may be used against it. You can say that's a good and admirable thing, but it also takes a revolutionary tension between people and government and structures into the national identity.
  - retox 4y ago
    Thank you.
bawolff 4y ago
> They freely use the language and processes of science as their argument. You or I may think they misuse the language, make unconvincing assumptions, etc, but there's nothing to it that's skeptical of science. Words are different than the things they refer to. Using "sciency" words doesn't neccesarily mean people are following the scientific method just like how soverign citizens aren't actually lawyers. What matters is the meaning of the words, not what they superficially sound like. * to be clear, im not saying that all antivaccine people are neccesarily anti-science, just that the superficial form of the words they use is irrelavent.
- swatcoder 4y ago
  Sure, but practicing science poorly, or communicating about it naively, is not the same as being science skeptical or anti-science. That's the point. If it helps to situate it in a different truth system: Heresy may be wrong according to the prevailing doctrine or theologically unsound, but it's still operating within the religious system of belief. Professing belief unitarianism is not atheism, and making unconvincing or unsound scientific arguments is not anti-science.
- origin_path 4y ago
  That cuts in both directions. COVID proved beyond any doubt at all for those paying attention that the public health institutions are overrun with pseudo-science. Their claims are literally nothing but sciency words, and lots of people who refuse to take vaccines now point to that fact (which is easily proven) as a good reason to stay away from them. Actually it's worse than institutions just using science incorrectly. They just flat out make up scientific sounding claims. The claim that everyone had to take the vaxx even if they weren't elderly was rooted in claims that the COVID vaccines would create herd immunity by stopping transmission. Go try and find the underlying scientific evidence that led to that belief - there isn't any. They just made it up because they knew it'd cause the Vaccine True Believers to force everyone around them to take it. And those people were now revealed to not only be idiots: the vaccines have never stopped transmission, but in many case flat out evil authoritarians as well.
tzs 4y ago
Jehovah's Witnesses are not a faith healing community and their religion is not anti-vaccination [1] [2]. Christian Scientists do first turn to prayer for healing, but it is not part of the dogma. Their church is fine with members who get vaccinated [3]. [1] https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/wp20101001/Do-Jehovahs-Witnesses-Practice-Faith-Healing/ https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/wp20101001/Do-Jehova... [2] https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jw-vaccines-immunization/ https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jw-vaccines-imm... [3] https://www.christianscience.com/press-room/a-christian-science-perspective-on-vaccination-and-public-health https://www.christianscience.com/press-room/a-christian-scie...
- swatcoder 4y ago
  Good to know! I was wary about naming names and am now bummed I labeled them wrongly, but had wanted to illustrate a familiar example of skepticism towards a system as distinct from debate within a system.
nobody9999 4y ago
>They believe that these institutions can not be trusted to communicate scientific knowledge free of political bias. >And when you look at it that way, of course America is the exporter of that. Yes, we Americans are a distrustful bunch. But there's more to this outcome than just being a stubborn, cranky and untrusting people. As Peter Medawar[0] described[1]: The USA is so enormous, and so numerous are its schools, colleges and religious seminaries, many devoted to special religious beliefs ranging from the unorthodox to the dotty, that we can hardly wonder at its yielding a more bounteous harvest of gobbledygook than the rest of the world put together. That's one of the other (related, but distinct) circumstances at play in this sort of "gobbledygook." [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Medawar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Medawar [1] https://www.azquotes.com/author/21678-Peter_Medawar https://www.azquotes.com/author/21678-Peter_Medawar
- hilbert42 4y ago
  Medawar being Medawar, you can believe it!
Spooky23 4y ago
You hit the nail on the head. It’s about power and authority. The tragic situation in New York with respect to polio is all about the intersection of religion, power and control. People seeking that power need it attack the credibility of government institutions because they are a threat. If people die or suffer, so be it. It’s cynical and gross.

retox 4y ago

Can you expand on what you mean by 'The country is constitutionally designed to live in perpetual tension with itself'? Let's also not lose sight of the fake vaccine operation run by the CIA in Pakistan to catch Bin Laden. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vaccinations-osama-bin-ladens-dna https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vacci...

miguelazo 4y ago
Thank you-- the CIA's fake vaccine operation should be in the first or second paragraph of every article that discusses polio outbreaks. It has had a huge effect on public health.
swatcoder 4y ago
The Declaration of Independence and Constitution establish that all governments are vulnerable to becoming tyrannical, and the Bill of Rights establishes that people have specific rights that supersede the sovereign bodies that govern them. It insists on the government providing allowance for rights that may be used against it. You can say that's a good and admirable thing, but it also takes a revolutionary tension between people and government and structures into the national identity.
- retox 4y ago
  Thank you.

bawolff 4y ago

> They freely use the language and processes of science as their argument. You or I may think they misuse the language, make unconvincing assumptions, etc, but there's nothing to it that's skeptical of science. Words are different than the things they refer to. Using "sciency" words doesn't neccesarily mean people are following the scientific method just like how soverign citizens aren't actually lawyers. What matters is the meaning of the words, not what they superficially sound like. * to be clear, im not saying that all antivaccine people are neccesarily anti-science, just that the superficial form of the words they use is irrelavent.

swatcoder 4y ago
Sure, but practicing science poorly, or communicating about it naively, is not the same as being science skeptical or anti-science. That's the point. If it helps to situate it in a different truth system: Heresy may be wrong according to the prevailing doctrine or theologically unsound, but it's still operating within the religious system of belief. Professing belief unitarianism is not atheism, and making unconvincing or unsound scientific arguments is not anti-science.
origin_path 4y ago
That cuts in both directions. COVID proved beyond any doubt at all for those paying attention that the public health institutions are overrun with pseudo-science. Their claims are literally nothing but sciency words, and lots of people who refuse to take vaccines now point to that fact (which is easily proven) as a good reason to stay away from them. Actually it's worse than institutions just using science incorrectly. They just flat out make up scientific sounding claims. The claim that everyone had to take the vaxx even if they weren't elderly was rooted in claims that the COVID vaccines would create herd immunity by stopping transmission. Go try and find the underlying scientific evidence that led to that belief - there isn't any. They just made it up because they knew it'd cause the Vaccine True Believers to force everyone around them to take it. And those people were now revealed to not only be idiots: the vaccines have never stopped transmission, but in many case flat out evil authoritarians as well.

tzs 4y ago

Jehovah's Witnesses are not a faith healing community and their religion is not anti-vaccination [1] [2]. Christian Scientists do first turn to prayer for healing, but it is not part of the dogma. Their church is fine with members who get vaccinated [3]. [1] https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/wp20101001/Do-Jehovahs-Witnesses-Practice-Faith-Healing/ https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/wp20101001/Do-Jehova... [2] https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jw-vaccines-immunization/ https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jw-vaccines-imm... [3] https://www.christianscience.com/press-room/a-christian-science-perspective-on-vaccination-and-public-health https://www.christianscience.com/press-room/a-christian-scie...

swatcoder 4y ago
Good to know! I was wary about naming names and am now bummed I labeled them wrongly, but had wanted to illustrate a familiar example of skepticism towards a system as distinct from debate within a system.

nobody9999 4y ago

>They believe that these institutions can not be trusted to communicate scientific knowledge free of political bias. >And when you look at it that way, of course America is the exporter of that. Yes, we Americans are a distrustful bunch. But there's more to this outcome than just being a stubborn, cranky and untrusting people. As Peter Medawar[0] described[1]: The USA is so enormous, and so numerous are its schools, colleges and religious seminaries, many devoted to special religious beliefs ranging from the unorthodox to the dotty, that we can hardly wonder at its yielding a more bounteous harvest of gobbledygook than the rest of the world put together. That's one of the other (related, but distinct) circumstances at play in this sort of "gobbledygook." [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Medawar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Medawar [1] https://www.azquotes.com/author/21678-Peter_Medawar https://www.azquotes.com/author/21678-Peter_Medawar

hilbert42 4y ago
Medawar being Medawar, you can believe it!

Spooky23 4y ago

You hit the nail on the head. It’s about power and authority. The tragic situation in New York with respect to polio is all about the intersection of religion, power and control. People seeking that power need it attack the credibility of government institutions because they are a threat. If people die or suffer, so be it. It’s cynical and gross.