4 ms·

Email clients suck, but we can't pretend that like three major organizations setting the spam policing rules is a good thing for the protocol

mongol 4y ago
Google, Microsoft.. who is the third... Yahoo?
- bravetraveler 4y ago
  I pulled the number out of the air, but sure -- let's call it Yahoo or 'everyone else' I feel like Google/MS cover the bulk of recipients, the main barriers to running your own MTA
dane-pgp 4y ago
> but we can't pretend Just watch me! Here's what I imagine: These ~three major organizations all get together and announce that from now on, if you register a new domain with an MX record, you have to also put up a bond which can be slashed if they detect you sending spam from your domain. Okay, there are obviously problems with this, but to address the main ones: * All existing domains are grandfathered in, so this system only harms businesses that don't exist yet (and thus aren't around to complain) * The cabal could instead delegate the bond-slashing power to some group of 5 or 9 guardians of the internet, who could be voted on each year by the ITU, with one vote per country * This would require all domains to support DKIM signing, so that any evidence of spamming could be cryptographically verified, and let's mandate TLS while we're at it * To make this system truly global, decentralized, and transparent, it will probably have to be implemented using a distributed ledger, which will also prevent a dependency on any specific national currency or banking networks
Avamander 4y ago
What are they policing besides the very basics you should be doing anyways?
- bravetraveler 4y ago
  Plenty, but I'm not in the space to speak to specifics. A personal friend runs MXRoute and they could go on, and on, and on about how maintaining delivery for them is a very expensive venture -- and I promise you they're doing these 'very basics' At a minimum you'll need several outbound systems with queuing that leverages them. IP reputation is a full time affair
  - Avamander 4y ago
    IP reputation is done by everyone doing email who aren't tiny, in both directions. The large players really aren't doing anything special. It's just frequency bias, because you want to deliver to them. It's also a full-time affair only if you're trying to deliver content people don't want. Yes it takes some effort in all cases because you can't just go on and start blasting, but it's not a full-time effort with those providers.
- account42 4y ago
  Try to send a short and concise email to gmail, especially from a new alias. Instant spam folder. Fill the mail with AI-generated gibberish (or just whatever scam you want) and it's suddenly fine. Want to send to outlook? Better pony up for a whole /24 or they will drop all your mail from time to time because of a bad neighbor that you have no control over. That is the kind of policies they are setting.
  - Avamander 4y ago
    You're surprised that by following the pattern of a dead-average spammer your letters got treated as spam? That was rhetorical, don't answer. I think you misinterpreted my sentence in one dimension, it's not that they don't require things, it's that everyone does. Build reputation, pick a better neighborhood, you'll be fine. It's not Google's fault, it's just the vast amounts of abuse they get that follows the exact pattern you did.

mongol 4y ago

Google, Microsoft.. who is the third... Yahoo?

bravetraveler 4y ago
I pulled the number out of the air, but sure -- let's call it Yahoo or 'everyone else' I feel like Google/MS cover the bulk of recipients, the main barriers to running your own MTA

dane-pgp 4y ago

> but we can't pretend Just watch me! Here's what I imagine: These ~three major organizations all get together and announce that from now on, if you register a new domain with an MX record, you have to also put up a bond which can be slashed if they detect you sending spam from your domain. Okay, there are obviously problems with this, but to address the main ones: * All existing domains are grandfathered in, so this system only harms businesses that don't exist yet (and thus aren't around to complain) * The cabal could instead delegate the bond-slashing power to some group of 5 or 9 guardians of the internet, who could be voted on each year by the ITU, with one vote per country * This would require all domains to support DKIM signing, so that any evidence of spamming could be cryptographically verified, and let's mandate TLS while we're at it * To make this system truly global, decentralized, and transparent, it will probably have to be implemented using a distributed ledger, which will also prevent a dependency on any specific national currency or banking networks

Avamander 4y ago

What are they policing besides the very basics you should be doing anyways?

bravetraveler 4y ago
Plenty, but I'm not in the space to speak to specifics. A personal friend runs MXRoute and they could go on, and on, and on about how maintaining delivery for them is a very expensive venture -- and I promise you they're doing these 'very basics' At a minimum you'll need several outbound systems with queuing that leverages them. IP reputation is a full time affair
- Avamander 4y ago
  IP reputation is done by everyone doing email who aren't tiny, in both directions. The large players really aren't doing anything special. It's just frequency bias, because you want to deliver to them. It's also a full-time affair only if you're trying to deliver content people don't want. Yes it takes some effort in all cases because you can't just go on and start blasting, but it's not a full-time effort with those providers.
account42 4y ago
Try to send a short and concise email to gmail, especially from a new alias. Instant spam folder. Fill the mail with AI-generated gibberish (or just whatever scam you want) and it's suddenly fine. Want to send to outlook? Better pony up for a whole /24 or they will drop all your mail from time to time because of a bad neighbor that you have no control over. That is the kind of policies they are setting.
- Avamander 4y ago
  You're surprised that by following the pattern of a dead-average spammer your letters got treated as spam? That was rhetorical, don't answer. I think you misinterpreted my sentence in one dimension, it's not that they don't require things, it's that everyone does. Build reputation, pick a better neighborhood, you'll be fine. It's not Google's fault, it's just the vast amounts of abuse they get that follows the exact pattern you did.