4 ms·

whats more likely, removing zoning regulations magically creates more low-income housing? or removing zoning regulations allows corporations to start building f

by ejb999 4y ago

whats more likely, removing zoning regulations magically creates more low-income housing? or removing zoning regulations allows corporations to start building factories and stores in residential areas?

Ekaros 4y ago
What would be wrong with building stores? And would they build factories if land in other places would likely be cheaper and infrastructure from roads to power better?
- ejb999 4y ago
  do you really want a 7-11/gas station next to your house in quite residential neighborhood? I doubt it. How about a strip club? how about a battery recycling company? how about a metal recycling plant? How about a bar that is open to 4AM and has lots of live concerts? Zoning regulations exist for a reason - removing them will do ZERO to generate more low-income housing - if there was money to be made in building low-income housing, there would be plenty of low-income housing already.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    Living next to rather busy intersection, I see no problems with most of those. A shop near to me would be nice, gas station would make things simpler. And what is wrong with strip clubs? Some sort of moral purity that only very very very annoying churches should be allowed? I would ban all of those for many kilometres from any housing. Horribly noisy and the traffic...
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      I have no moral objections to strip clubs, but the large amount of traffic, parking lot noise (of cars and humans), drunken, horny people doing drunken, horny people things (including yelling and fighting), typically late at night is probably incompatible with most people’s idea of quiet residential usage of land.
  - bennysomething 4y ago
    I'm repeating myself but European cities like Edinburgh are really great in part due to the mix or apartments with pubs and shops near by or directly under flats. Obviously there's still planning required and there has been disputes with venues (with bad outcomes were a residential block was built beside an old music venue and it was forced to close due to noise). Overall though it makes the whole place very livable and walkable
  - dktoao 4y ago
    1) 7-ll/gas station: Yes, that would be nice! 2) Strip club / bar / music venu: Yes, this would also be nice! As long as it adheres to noise ordinances and pays for an appropriate amount of security. 3) Heavy industry: no, but I think most reasonable people and even TFA would make the case that this is an acceptable use of zoning. Zoning regulation exist for a reason but have gone way way too far in the favor of NIMBYs who like living in food/fun/transportation deserts.
    - anon291 4y ago
      > ) Heavy industry: no, but I think most reasonable people and even TFA would make the case that this is an acceptable use of zoning. It's also a total non-concern. Reasonable regulation can get around this. Here's a law that we can add today before we get rid of zoning. 1. Any business that knowingly engages in activity that leaks toxic materials, noise at night, vibrations, or other nuisances onto adjoining properties preventing neighborhing pre-existing property owners from enjoying their property, owes 200% punitive damages of any revenue derived from such activity or, if no revenue is derived, $1 million. Easy... now no company will possibly build in an area with existing housing because they can face hefty damages. For example, a metal recycling company which deals with potentially hazardous waste can have its revenue turned into a loss if it builds near homes. On the other hand, since the regulation only applies to nuisances towards existing homeowners, no one will develop housing near such a metal recycling facility, because they know they will face nuisances and there's nothing they can do. In fact, this is how it was done for many centuries.
  - anon291 4y ago
    I live two blocks from a 7/11 gas station in a very lovely, quiet neighborhood that is quieter than the suburban neighborhood I grew up in. This neighborhood developed pre-zoning. Strip clubs should be wholesale illegal, but I digress. I suppose there is a Thai massage parler of dubious characcter in my neighborhood (recently started), but it'll soon be kicked out I imagine due to public pressure. It's not like no zoning means there's no neighborhood input. Live concerts... ? Well that is against noise regulations and so while a bar can happily exist (in fact the best tiki bar in my state is located a few blocks away... lovely date night), it has to take effort to be quiet. This is good. Bars and pubs are integral to community cohesion. There are two bars near me that throw concerts, but these are usually during the day and the neighbors are invited, and they give us free food and beer sometimes, so that's nice. I honestly cannot understand the complaint. I'm not advocating the removal of zoning for low-income housing. Removing zoning would build more lovely luxury housing, which is what we need more of. Low-income housing is just old luxury housing. All housing is luxury when it's built. No one build old housing. Why would you intentionally build something shitty?
danbolt 4y ago
Wait, what kind of stores? I love it when a smaller grocery or cafe is walkable from my home.
- ejb999 4y ago
  except if you remove zoning regulations, you no longer get to pick what stores get built or businesses move in...thats is the whole point. Maybe you would love a small boutique coffee-shop, but what if a strip joint that is open to 4AM moves in instead? Still OK with that? not if you are raising a family and care about the value of your home and safety of your neighborhood.
  - anon291 4y ago
    You could just make strip clubs illegal? or make them not legal within 100 feet of any children or household containing children, or any residential place. This is not something only zoning can handle. I'm not advocating for no regulation just no zoning regulation. zoning regulation is saying 'here is some undeveloped land, instead of letting it develop organically with regulations, we're going to chop the land into pieces and assign what can and cannot be done with it.' So, for example, take sex offenders. As it is they can't live within X feet of a school. If they live somewhere and a school is being built that puts them in violation of this rule, the sex offender has to move. The same should be true of strip clubs / adult venues. They can exist, but they cannot exist within X feet of an existing home. Boom. Strip clubs won't be built in residential areas, homes won't be built near strip clubs (except for maybe homes for horny adults?), and also no zoning was involved. Other than that... Yeah I would like if the taco shop down the street sold ramen and the chocolate shop sold turkish delight too, but alas, I mean... what're you going to do?
  - danbolt 4y ago
    I think my response to that has two elements: 1. A strip joint would have economic incentives for an ideal location much like residential housing. It would likely benefit from a more economically active corridor rather than where a bunch of families raise kids. I've noticed this with adult shops when I lived in different suburbs of Vancouver. 2. Municipalities often have bylaws for when/how they can serve alcohol (eg: "last call") as well as noise levels. It strikes me that there are better regulations for ensuring these sorts of things rather than entirely stamping out small businesses to be near homes. Like, I can understand not wanting to live next to a dive bar full of students on a Tuesday evening, but I think there's still a lot of room with liberalizing zoning to make more comfortable living spaces in North America. Japan's attitude to things makes a lot more sense to me [1], especially having lived there in a suburb nextdoor to a school. [1] http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html
missedthecue 4y ago
Factories require a lot of space. They don't like to build them on expensive residential plots. In cases where homes happen to be near factories, it's because the homes moved into the cheap exurban land after the factory had long been there. As far as stores, I would welcome more convenient shopping options near to my residence.
- uoaei 4y ago
  There is no "residential plots" without zoning. Just plots.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - missedthecue 4y ago
    Yes but building a factory in a residential area would be prohibitively expensive. Way cheaper to snap up 100-300 acres on the outskirts of town.
- bennysomething 4y ago
  It's what is great about old cities like Edinburgh in Scotland, apartments with shops and pubs below or near by.
  - ejb999 4y ago
    sure, but Edinburgh allows that type of zoning and has all kinds of rules around what can and can't be built - it didn't happen because Edinburgh removed all zoning regulations and they just hoped for the best which is what the OP was advocating.
    - anon291 4y ago
      No not at all. As I said above, regulations such as (X can't be built within N feet of Y) are fine for certain cases. These are not zoning. Zoning is taking land that's not developed and slicing it up deciding where things should go. That is terrible. It's centralized planning. It is against every principle of freedom of families to choose where to live and to engage in commerce. It is the worst kind of socialism.
yibg 4y ago
We have example of other countries where this works better, or at least can look at to see what the results are and if they are better or not. We don't need to guess and hypothesize.
- ejb999 4y ago
  which countries have removed all zoning regulations?
  - anon291 4y ago
    Consider any neighborhood in the United States built before the 50s, like my own, and you will see the result of no zoning restrictions. So as to which countries... our country. Most countries had no zoning until recently.
kthejoker2 4y ago
Lol come to Houston, we'll dispel you of your notions of low zoning regulations. Most housing starts in the nation over the last 10 years, leader of "housing first" homeless solutions, amazingly low housing compared to the national average ... Market urbanism works. Reducing excessive zoning works. Pushing back on NIMBYism works.
anon291 4y ago
I live in a residential area with factories and stores. This area developed in a time before zoning Two things. 1. By removing zoning regulation, it's actually smaller mom and pop shops who build factories and stores. Corporations can, but actually smaller businesses can move quicker and are thus able to buy the land in upcoming areas faster (likely because the owners live there). On the other hand, with zoning, large corporations are incentivized to own commercial space. Mom and pops don't want to, because if they purchase land for a factory, they don't know if the city will actually allow that or not, and can't afford the wait / lobbying. Only large companies can. So contrary to your contrived example of no zoning leading to large factories interspersed with housing, no zoning leads to lovely homes interspersed with small artisanal factories. I'll tell you... it's extremely pleasant to walk to the artisanal chocolate factory for a mid-day treat. I pity those that cannot because they're worried Nestle's going to plop a mega-factory in their neighborhood. 2. Removing zoning regulations will encourage rich local residents to build nice housing. This will be expensive housing. No one builds low-income housing because it's stupid. Why spend a bunch of money to rent for under-market rents. But, by expanding the luxury supply, you create under-market rents for old luxury supply that hasn't been updated. That's great.

by ejb999 4y ago

Ekaros 4y ago

What would be wrong with building stores? And would they build factories if land in other places would likely be cheaper and infrastructure from roads to power better?

ejb999 4y ago
do you really want a 7-11/gas station next to your house in quite residential neighborhood? I doubt it. How about a strip club? how about a battery recycling company? how about a metal recycling plant? How about a bar that is open to 4AM and has lots of live concerts? Zoning regulations exist for a reason - removing them will do ZERO to generate more low-income housing - if there was money to be made in building low-income housing, there would be plenty of low-income housing already.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Living next to rather busy intersection, I see no problems with most of those. A shop near to me would be nice, gas station would make things simpler. And what is wrong with strip clubs? Some sort of moral purity that only very very very annoying churches should be allowed? I would ban all of those for many kilometres from any housing. Horribly noisy and the traffic...
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    I have no moral objections to strip clubs, but the large amount of traffic, parking lot noise (of cars and humans), drunken, horny people doing drunken, horny people things (including yelling and fighting), typically late at night is probably incompatible with most people’s idea of quiet residential usage of land.
- bennysomething 4y ago
  I'm repeating myself but European cities like Edinburgh are really great in part due to the mix or apartments with pubs and shops near by or directly under flats. Obviously there's still planning required and there has been disputes with venues (with bad outcomes were a residential block was built beside an old music venue and it was forced to close due to noise). Overall though it makes the whole place very livable and walkable
- dktoao 4y ago
  1) 7-ll/gas station: Yes, that would be nice! 2) Strip club / bar / music venu: Yes, this would also be nice! As long as it adheres to noise ordinances and pays for an appropriate amount of security. 3) Heavy industry: no, but I think most reasonable people and even TFA would make the case that this is an acceptable use of zoning. Zoning regulation exist for a reason but have gone way way too far in the favor of NIMBYs who like living in food/fun/transportation deserts.
  - anon291 4y ago
    > ) Heavy industry: no, but I think most reasonable people and even TFA would make the case that this is an acceptable use of zoning. It's also a total non-concern. Reasonable regulation can get around this. Here's a law that we can add today before we get rid of zoning. 1. Any business that knowingly engages in activity that leaks toxic materials, noise at night, vibrations, or other nuisances onto adjoining properties preventing neighborhing pre-existing property owners from enjoying their property, owes 200% punitive damages of any revenue derived from such activity or, if no revenue is derived, $1 million. Easy... now no company will possibly build in an area with existing housing because they can face hefty damages. For example, a metal recycling company which deals with potentially hazardous waste can have its revenue turned into a loss if it builds near homes. On the other hand, since the regulation only applies to nuisances towards existing homeowners, no one will develop housing near such a metal recycling facility, because they know they will face nuisances and there's nothing they can do. In fact, this is how it was done for many centuries.
- anon291 4y ago
  I live two blocks from a 7/11 gas station in a very lovely, quiet neighborhood that is quieter than the suburban neighborhood I grew up in. This neighborhood developed pre-zoning. Strip clubs should be wholesale illegal, but I digress. I suppose there is a Thai massage parler of dubious characcter in my neighborhood (recently started), but it'll soon be kicked out I imagine due to public pressure. It's not like no zoning means there's no neighborhood input. Live concerts... ? Well that is against noise regulations and so while a bar can happily exist (in fact the best tiki bar in my state is located a few blocks away... lovely date night), it has to take effort to be quiet. This is good. Bars and pubs are integral to community cohesion. There are two bars near me that throw concerts, but these are usually during the day and the neighbors are invited, and they give us free food and beer sometimes, so that's nice. I honestly cannot understand the complaint. I'm not advocating the removal of zoning for low-income housing. Removing zoning would build more lovely luxury housing, which is what we need more of. Low-income housing is just old luxury housing. All housing is luxury when it's built. No one build old housing. Why would you intentionally build something shitty?

danbolt 4y ago

Wait, what kind of stores? I love it when a smaller grocery or cafe is walkable from my home.

ejb999 4y ago
except if you remove zoning regulations, you no longer get to pick what stores get built or businesses move in...thats is the whole point. Maybe you would love a small boutique coffee-shop, but what if a strip joint that is open to 4AM moves in instead? Still OK with that? not if you are raising a family and care about the value of your home and safety of your neighborhood.
- anon291 4y ago
  You could just make strip clubs illegal? or make them not legal within 100 feet of any children or household containing children, or any residential place. This is not something only zoning can handle. I'm not advocating for no regulation just no zoning regulation. zoning regulation is saying 'here is some undeveloped land, instead of letting it develop organically with regulations, we're going to chop the land into pieces and assign what can and cannot be done with it.' So, for example, take sex offenders. As it is they can't live within X feet of a school. If they live somewhere and a school is being built that puts them in violation of this rule, the sex offender has to move. The same should be true of strip clubs / adult venues. They can exist, but they cannot exist within X feet of an existing home. Boom. Strip clubs won't be built in residential areas, homes won't be built near strip clubs (except for maybe homes for horny adults?), and also no zoning was involved. Other than that... Yeah I would like if the taco shop down the street sold ramen and the chocolate shop sold turkish delight too, but alas, I mean... what're you going to do?
- danbolt 4y ago
  I think my response to that has two elements: 1. A strip joint would have economic incentives for an ideal location much like residential housing. It would likely benefit from a more economically active corridor rather than where a bunch of families raise kids. I've noticed this with adult shops when I lived in different suburbs of Vancouver. 2. Municipalities often have bylaws for when/how they can serve alcohol (eg: "last call") as well as noise levels. It strikes me that there are better regulations for ensuring these sorts of things rather than entirely stamping out small businesses to be near homes. Like, I can understand not wanting to live next to a dive bar full of students on a Tuesday evening, but I think there's still a lot of room with liberalizing zoning to make more comfortable living spaces in North America. Japan's attitude to things makes a lot more sense to me [1], especially having lived there in a suburb nextdoor to a school. [1] http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html

missedthecue 4y ago

Factories require a lot of space. They don't like to build them on expensive residential plots. In cases where homes happen to be near factories, it's because the homes moved into the cheap exurban land after the factory had long been there. As far as stores, I would welcome more convenient shopping options near to my residence.

uoaei 4y ago
There is no "residential plots" without zoning. Just plots.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- missedthecue 4y ago
  Yes but building a factory in a residential area would be prohibitively expensive. Way cheaper to snap up 100-300 acres on the outskirts of town.
bennysomething 4y ago
It's what is great about old cities like Edinburgh in Scotland, apartments with shops and pubs below or near by.
- ejb999 4y ago
  sure, but Edinburgh allows that type of zoning and has all kinds of rules around what can and can't be built - it didn't happen because Edinburgh removed all zoning regulations and they just hoped for the best which is what the OP was advocating.
  - anon291 4y ago
    No not at all. As I said above, regulations such as (X can't be built within N feet of Y) are fine for certain cases. These are not zoning. Zoning is taking land that's not developed and slicing it up deciding where things should go. That is terrible. It's centralized planning. It is against every principle of freedom of families to choose where to live and to engage in commerce. It is the worst kind of socialism.

yibg 4y ago

We have example of other countries where this works better, or at least can look at to see what the results are and if they are better or not. We don't need to guess and hypothesize.

ejb999 4y ago
which countries have removed all zoning regulations?
- anon291 4y ago
  Consider any neighborhood in the United States built before the 50s, like my own, and you will see the result of no zoning restrictions. So as to which countries... our country. Most countries had no zoning until recently.

kthejoker2 4y ago

Lol come to Houston, we'll dispel you of your notions of low zoning regulations. Most housing starts in the nation over the last 10 years, leader of "housing first" homeless solutions, amazingly low housing compared to the national average ... Market urbanism works. Reducing excessive zoning works. Pushing back on NIMBYism works.

anon291 4y ago

I live in a residential area with factories and stores. This area developed in a time before zoning Two things. 1. By removing zoning regulation, it's actually smaller mom and pop shops who build factories and stores. Corporations can, but actually smaller businesses can move quicker and are thus able to buy the land in upcoming areas faster (likely because the owners live there). On the other hand, with zoning, large corporations are incentivized to own commercial space. Mom and pops don't want to, because if they purchase land for a factory, they don't know if the city will actually allow that or not, and can't afford the wait / lobbying. Only large companies can. So contrary to your contrived example of no zoning leading to large factories interspersed with housing, no zoning leads to lovely homes interspersed with small artisanal factories. I'll tell you... it's extremely pleasant to walk to the artisanal chocolate factory for a mid-day treat. I pity those that cannot because they're worried Nestle's going to plop a mega-factory in their neighborhood. 2. Removing zoning regulations will encourage rich local residents to build nice housing. This will be expensive housing. No one builds low-income housing because it's stupid. Why spend a bunch of money to rent for under-market rents. But, by expanding the luxury supply, you create under-market rents for old luxury supply that hasn't been updated. That's great.