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As someone who graduated with $60k + in debt, despite multiple grants and financial aid, and who currently makes under the limit... I highly appreciate this. Ed

As someone who graduated with $60k + in debt, despite multiple grants and financial aid, and who currently makes under the limit... I highly appreciate this. Education is foundational to society, and I've experienced both university education and public college education enough to know that difference in quality. Nothing against people who can only afford public college, but the quality is subpar -- and the fact that there are people who can only afford that is the problem. We really need education to be more accessible; making education expensive is, whether intentional or not, a way to keep poor people poor. Education too expensive? Welp, too bad, you've got to find a job that (a) doesn't require a degree and (b) doesn't require skills or knowledge taught in universities. It'll probably pay less, so oh well if you were hoping to make enough money to get out of your socioeconomic hole. Inb4 "but you did it": I was lucky enough to have a few relatively rich cousins who would cosign loans for me, lucky enough to be given opportunities by university department heads that I wasn't owed, and even then I almost didn't get that degree. And still, despite all that, $60k+ in debt. No one is asking for "handouts". People are asking for a society in which exposure to good ideas, and guidance on how to determine which ideas are good at all, isn't reserved for people with stuffed bank accounts or rich parents. And that's just common sense for anyone with any empathy or hope for the future of the species.

sul_tasto 4y ago
Then the democrats should have passed legislation targeting the root of the college affordability problem, not a one-off. This legislation doesn’t solve anything.
- IceMetalPunk 4y ago
  Someone else said something similar, that this is "unfair" because it doesn't solve the root of the problem. We're all STEM folks here, most of us are developers, so let me ask you a hypothetical: imagine you're developing an app. You develop a proof-of-concept and show it to the client. They turn to you and say, "we're not paying you for the time you took to make this; it's not the full app". What would you think? Progress is not binary. This policy doesn't solve the whole problem, but it is a step in the right direction. Consider it a proof of concept: if this policy can show the feasibility of forgiving existing student loan debt that's piled up over many decades, then it should pave the way for future policies which can better subsidize new loans -- a far lower cost. Obviously, the root of the problem lies with privatization of education and capitalism, but those are things so ingrained in our society that we basically can't expect to ever fix them. Working our way towards better subsidies is the next best goal.
  - sul_tasto 4y ago
    There was a discussion in the democratic party at the beginning of the Biden administration about offering the first two years of community college for free, similar to what’s been done in Tennessee. This plan was scrapped after universities lobbied the democrats out of fear that it would hurt their bottom line- that is, actually make the cost of college more affordable. This is something that would have benefited everyone, especially the working class. That would have been fair. This half measure is most definitely not a “step in the right direction.” Indeed, your suggestion of finding a way to subsidize new loans at lower cost is exactly what has caused the cost of college to explode - which I’m sure would receive the ardent backing of universities in the US.
Test0129 4y ago
> No one is asking for "handouts". People are asking for a society in which exposure to good ideas, and guidance on how to determine which ideas are good at all, isn't reserved for people with stuffed bank accounts or rich parents. And that's just common sense for anyone with any empathy or hope for the future of the species. The greatest scam perpetrated on Americans is the idea that "college education" is necessary to succeed. This scam has been so successful that several generations of people are now required, by companies, to go into debt for a piece of paper in order to pass HR filters. Moreover, people ARE asking for handouts. College students have been begging for loan forgiveness for a decade. It is quite literally a handout. Admittedly I am quite upset because I sacrificed years of my life and potential income to do the responsible thing and pay off my loans. This is the ultimate slight at me, and everyone like me, because with this $10k-$20k there is no punishment. There is no reduced credit score to rubble for 10 years, there is no "you cant return to school for 10 years if you take this". It is quite literally, by definition, another example of helicopter money to people who made a choice and now don't even have to live with it. People who decided to never pay off their loans, the approximately 50% of students with debt less than $20k, are now going to be relieved of this debt with _zero punishment_ for being so foolish. There is no debt relief system in any country on this planet as crazy as this. This is not the approach we need, and it doesn't solve the fundamental problem. I have done almost 12 years in the university system. There is not a single skill I have learned applicable to any job I've held in the last decade. It's simply credentialing on par with what a professional certification would've been 20 years ago. We aren't subsidizing journeymen, etc for their education. We shouldn't subsidize university students either. Further, you can argue this simply benefits the rich. Now the companies that underwrote toxic debt get a payday on money that may not have come otherwise. Arguably, this could be considered on-par with the great financial collapse and the bailouts of banks. We should not punish the people who chose not to go to college in order to "help" the people who chose to go into absurd levels of debt for a credential. Fix the system that is convincing people that this is the only way. Make bankruptcy possible and punish the companies for underwriting bad debt. 300B dollars is a lot of money to look to stylish.
- IceMetalPunk 4y ago
  > College students have been begging for loan forgiveness for a decade. It is quite literally a handout. I guess it depends how you define "handout". Usually that term connotes something undeserved, which is where I disagree with you. > Admittedly I am quite upset because I sacrificed years of my life and potential income to do the responsible thing and pay off my loans. This is the ultimate slight at me, and everyone like me, because with this $10k-$20k there is no punishment. Imagine if a parent said "I grew up poor and starving, so I'd be quite upset if my children had enough food to eat." That's basically what you're doing: you were punished by a broken system, and now you are mad if other people aren't punished the way you are. That's just selfish and petty. > It is quite literally, by definition, another example of helicopter money to people who made a choice and now don't even have to live with it. You're describing this "choice" in a way that seems to imply all choices are equal. That anyone can choose to go to college or not and have the same outcomes in life, that there's no benefit in choosing one path over another, that there aren't other factors influencing such a decision or the availability of these decisions in the first place, etc. "Don't even have to live with it" -- do you realize that sounds like you're implying lifelong debt is a punishment for education? Something that must be "lived with" if you get said education? > There is not a single skill I have learned applicable to any job I've held in the last decade. Why is that your metric? More importantly, if that is your metric, why did you spend 3x the usual amount of time at university if you weren't getting anything out of it? > We should not punish the people who chose not to go to college in order to "help" the people who chose to go into absurd levels of debt for a credential. Fix the system that is convincing people that this is the only way. 300B dollars is a lot of money to look to stylish. You're not being punished. Your debt would be the same with or without this policy. The cost to the average taxpayer is less than the cost of tuition at a public college. So guess what? If this policy paves the way for future similar policies that apply to new loans, you too can get free college education and make that tax money work for you, if you can't bear to let it work only for others. It's not about "looking stylish". It's about the importance of education and acting as a proof of concept that it's feasible to make said education accessible to everyone.
google234123 4y ago
Why should we all have to pay for your bad choice of not going to a more affordable public school? Anyway, this action isn’t legal through executive order so I won’t worry
- IceMetalPunk 4y ago
  1) For many people, "more affordable public school" is still out of reach. 2) The quality of education at public schools is very often lower than that at more expensive schools. I have at least two data points of my own experience to back that up, along with the public perceptions. Acting like getting a better education is a "bad choice" because privatized universities overcharge students is not only an oversimplification, but one that punishes people for trying to better themselves, and for trying to be better contributors to the society we all share. 3) From what I've read, it is legal, via the HEROES act of 2003.

sul_tasto 4y ago

Then the democrats should have passed legislation targeting the root of the college affordability problem, not a one-off. This legislation doesn’t solve anything.

IceMetalPunk 4y ago
Someone else said something similar, that this is "unfair" because it doesn't solve the root of the problem. We're all STEM folks here, most of us are developers, so let me ask you a hypothetical: imagine you're developing an app. You develop a proof-of-concept and show it to the client. They turn to you and say, "we're not paying you for the time you took to make this; it's not the full app". What would you think? Progress is not binary. This policy doesn't solve the whole problem, but it is a step in the right direction. Consider it a proof of concept: if this policy can show the feasibility of forgiving existing student loan debt that's piled up over many decades, then it should pave the way for future policies which can better subsidize new loans -- a far lower cost. Obviously, the root of the problem lies with privatization of education and capitalism, but those are things so ingrained in our society that we basically can't expect to ever fix them. Working our way towards better subsidies is the next best goal.
- sul_tasto 4y ago
  There was a discussion in the democratic party at the beginning of the Biden administration about offering the first two years of community college for free, similar to what’s been done in Tennessee. This plan was scrapped after universities lobbied the democrats out of fear that it would hurt their bottom line- that is, actually make the cost of college more affordable. This is something that would have benefited everyone, especially the working class. That would have been fair. This half measure is most definitely not a “step in the right direction.” Indeed, your suggestion of finding a way to subsidize new loans at lower cost is exactly what has caused the cost of college to explode - which I’m sure would receive the ardent backing of universities in the US.

Test0129 4y ago

> No one is asking for "handouts". People are asking for a society in which exposure to good ideas, and guidance on how to determine which ideas are good at all, isn't reserved for people with stuffed bank accounts or rich parents. And that's just common sense for anyone with any empathy or hope for the future of the species. The greatest scam perpetrated on Americans is the idea that "college education" is necessary to succeed. This scam has been so successful that several generations of people are now required, by companies, to go into debt for a piece of paper in order to pass HR filters. Moreover, people ARE asking for handouts. College students have been begging for loan forgiveness for a decade. It is quite literally a handout. Admittedly I am quite upset because I sacrificed years of my life and potential income to do the responsible thing and pay off my loans. This is the ultimate slight at me, and everyone like me, because with this $10k-$20k there is no punishment. There is no reduced credit score to rubble for 10 years, there is no "you cant return to school for 10 years if you take this". It is quite literally, by definition, another example of helicopter money to people who made a choice and now don't even have to live with it. People who decided to never pay off their loans, the approximately 50% of students with debt less than $20k, are now going to be relieved of this debt with _zero punishment_ for being so foolish. There is no debt relief system in any country on this planet as crazy as this. This is not the approach we need, and it doesn't solve the fundamental problem. I have done almost 12 years in the university system. There is not a single skill I have learned applicable to any job I've held in the last decade. It's simply credentialing on par with what a professional certification would've been 20 years ago. We aren't subsidizing journeymen, etc for their education. We shouldn't subsidize university students either. Further, you can argue this simply benefits the rich. Now the companies that underwrote toxic debt get a payday on money that may not have come otherwise. Arguably, this could be considered on-par with the great financial collapse and the bailouts of banks. We should not punish the people who chose not to go to college in order to "help" the people who chose to go into absurd levels of debt for a credential. Fix the system that is convincing people that this is the only way. Make bankruptcy possible and punish the companies for underwriting bad debt. 300B dollars is a lot of money to look to stylish.

IceMetalPunk 4y ago
> College students have been begging for loan forgiveness for a decade. It is quite literally a handout. I guess it depends how you define "handout". Usually that term connotes something undeserved, which is where I disagree with you. > Admittedly I am quite upset because I sacrificed years of my life and potential income to do the responsible thing and pay off my loans. This is the ultimate slight at me, and everyone like me, because with this $10k-$20k there is no punishment. Imagine if a parent said "I grew up poor and starving, so I'd be quite upset if my children had enough food to eat." That's basically what you're doing: you were punished by a broken system, and now you are mad if other people aren't punished the way you are. That's just selfish and petty. > It is quite literally, by definition, another example of helicopter money to people who made a choice and now don't even have to live with it. You're describing this "choice" in a way that seems to imply all choices are equal. That anyone can choose to go to college or not and have the same outcomes in life, that there's no benefit in choosing one path over another, that there aren't other factors influencing such a decision or the availability of these decisions in the first place, etc. "Don't even have to live with it" -- do you realize that sounds like you're implying lifelong debt is a punishment for education? Something that must be "lived with" if you get said education? > There is not a single skill I have learned applicable to any job I've held in the last decade. Why is that your metric? More importantly, if that is your metric, why did you spend 3x the usual amount of time at university if you weren't getting anything out of it? > We should not punish the people who chose not to go to college in order to "help" the people who chose to go into absurd levels of debt for a credential. Fix the system that is convincing people that this is the only way. 300B dollars is a lot of money to look to stylish. You're not being punished. Your debt would be the same with or without this policy. The cost to the average taxpayer is less than the cost of tuition at a public college. So guess what? If this policy paves the way for future similar policies that apply to new loans, you too can get free college education and make that tax money work for you, if you can't bear to let it work only for others. It's not about "looking stylish". It's about the importance of education and acting as a proof of concept that it's feasible to make said education accessible to everyone.

google234123 4y ago

Why should we all have to pay for your bad choice of not going to a more affordable public school? Anyway, this action isn’t legal through executive order so I won’t worry

IceMetalPunk 4y ago
1) For many people, "more affordable public school" is still out of reach. 2) The quality of education at public schools is very often lower than that at more expensive schools. I have at least two data points of my own experience to back that up, along with the public perceptions. Acting like getting a better education is a "bad choice" because privatized universities overcharge students is not only an oversimplification, but one that punishes people for trying to better themselves, and for trying to be better contributors to the society we all share. 3) From what I've read, it is legal, via the HEROES act of 2003.