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> United States has absolutely shit public options for secondary education. Do you have something against an educated populace? The necessity of higher educati

> United States has absolutely shit public options for secondary education. Do you have something against an educated populace? The necessity of higher education is one of the greatest scams pulled on Americans. This is beating around the bush. The much greater problem is that cheap student loans have created a perverse economy in which a higher education degree (and therefore debt) is required to make money. The vast majority of the country is powered but what I imagine (since you used "chud" to describe me) as country bumpkins. The VAST, VAST majority of the country's production is done by people plowing farms and welding metal. Are these people not educated? Or does educated mean only a liberal arts degree to you? > Ah yes, THIS is punishing the middle class -- forgiving their loan debt. Subsidies to farmers? Totally cool. PPP Forgiveness, AWESOME! Defense contracts, great! This is a strawman not worth answering. I never implied any of those were good either. > This money is literally going to be piped straight back into the economy at a much needed time It will not. The M2 money supply showed us that during covid the vast majority of people stashed their wealth. With a potential incoming recession and economic disaster due to policies like this looming over our heads, people of less means will do the logical thing and store cash (making the situation worse). I really loathe your post and the assumptions it makes about me. Simply careless posting attacking a position you manufactured about me. Arguing in bad faith is worse than not arguing at all.

IceMetalPunk 4y ago
> The necessity of higher education is one of the greatest scams pulled on Americans. Education is required for society to make progress in all areas. There is, of course, the option for people to self-educate, but look around and tell me if you truly believe the majority are capable of that. Keep in mind that most people who say "do your research" have no idea what actual research is, anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers have screwed over public health efforts based on following misinformation and ignorance instead of evidence, etc. What I'm saying is that while unstructured education is an option, it's not one most people know how to do well, and with education being fundamental for human progress, that leaves structured education being just as fundamental. To say it's not is to promote an ignorant populace who can't tell the difference between evidence and swindling.
- oceanplexian 4y ago
  Edification isn’t required to make progress, in fact you’ll probably find a lot of self-educated people working on some of the world’s hardest problems, on this forum. Regardless, higher education isn’t the only form of education. In fact trade careers and certifications give people more economic mobility than anything you could go to college for. And those people might feel a bit stiffed that someone with a liberal arts degree is getting debt relief on their backs, while the money they sunk into an expensive technical education doesn’t qualify.
  - IceMetalPunk 4y ago
    > Edification isn’t required to make progress, in fact you’ll probably find a lot of self-educated people working on some of the world’s hardest problems, on this forum. On an individual level, it may not be required. But over a full population, it certainly is. Some people do well with self-education, but that is the minority, not the majority. > Regardless, higher education isn’t the only form of education. In fact trade careers and certifications give people more economic mobility than anything you could go to college for. If we consider economics the main reason for education, we have failed as a species. I learned so much at university that had nothing to do with my career. > And those people might feel a bit stiffed that someone with a liberal arts degree is getting debt relief on their backs, while the money they sunk into an expensive technical education doesn’t qualify. Whether someone "feels stiffed" or not is irrelevant. Thinking that other people shouldn't get help just because you didn't is petty. Also, "on their backs"? That evokes images of crushing weight, which isn't what will happen to them as a result of this policy, although it is what happens to the people who went to college without this policy.
    - oceanplexian 4y ago
      > Whether someone "feels stiffed" or not is irrelevant. Thinking that other people shouldn't get help just because you didn't is petty. I'm not against other people getting things, but to me, that evokes images of the government helping people struggling with food, or child care, or housing. Giving a middle class college grad who makes $100,000/yr $10,000 isn't "helping" the people who need it most. People who live in the marginalized, working class communities that progressives want to represent don't have college degrees. The whole thing seems tone deaf without even getting into why it's bad for the economy, perpetuates problems with the education system, etc.

IceMetalPunk 4y ago

> The necessity of higher education is one of the greatest scams pulled on Americans. Education is required for society to make progress in all areas. There is, of course, the option for people to self-educate, but look around and tell me if you truly believe the majority are capable of that. Keep in mind that most people who say "do your research" have no idea what actual research is, anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers have screwed over public health efforts based on following misinformation and ignorance instead of evidence, etc. What I'm saying is that while unstructured education is an option, it's not one most people know how to do well, and with education being fundamental for human progress, that leaves structured education being just as fundamental. To say it's not is to promote an ignorant populace who can't tell the difference between evidence and swindling.

oceanplexian 4y ago
Edification isn’t required to make progress, in fact you’ll probably find a lot of self-educated people working on some of the world’s hardest problems, on this forum. Regardless, higher education isn’t the only form of education. In fact trade careers and certifications give people more economic mobility than anything you could go to college for. And those people might feel a bit stiffed that someone with a liberal arts degree is getting debt relief on their backs, while the money they sunk into an expensive technical education doesn’t qualify.
- IceMetalPunk 4y ago
  > Edification isn’t required to make progress, in fact you’ll probably find a lot of self-educated people working on some of the world’s hardest problems, on this forum. On an individual level, it may not be required. But over a full population, it certainly is. Some people do well with self-education, but that is the minority, not the majority. > Regardless, higher education isn’t the only form of education. In fact trade careers and certifications give people more economic mobility than anything you could go to college for. If we consider economics the main reason for education, we have failed as a species. I learned so much at university that had nothing to do with my career. > And those people might feel a bit stiffed that someone with a liberal arts degree is getting debt relief on their backs, while the money they sunk into an expensive technical education doesn’t qualify. Whether someone "feels stiffed" or not is irrelevant. Thinking that other people shouldn't get help just because you didn't is petty. Also, "on their backs"? That evokes images of crushing weight, which isn't what will happen to them as a result of this policy, although it is what happens to the people who went to college without this policy.
  - oceanplexian 4y ago
    > Whether someone "feels stiffed" or not is irrelevant. Thinking that other people shouldn't get help just because you didn't is petty. I'm not against other people getting things, but to me, that evokes images of the government helping people struggling with food, or child care, or housing. Giving a middle class college grad who makes $100,000/yr $10,000 isn't "helping" the people who need it most. People who live in the marginalized, working class communities that progressives want to represent don't have college degrees. The whole thing seems tone deaf without even getting into why it's bad for the economy, perpetuates problems with the education system, etc.