3 ms·

Losses wouldn’t be bad with HVDC, with the added benefit of HVDC ties not needing to be frequency synced across the entire grid, so you have some opportunity to

Losses wouldn’t be bad with HVDC, with the added benefit of HVDC ties not needing to be frequency synced across the entire grid, so you have some opportunity to increase resiliency. I don’t think it’s a one-sized fits all solution. There will be places where storage will make sense, and other where longer distance transmission makes sense. I think the reality is it will be a mix of both, along with a nice diverse mix of generation methods.

philipkglass 4y ago
Australia seems especially well suited for long-distance transmission because development is so heavily weighted to the coasts; there's not a lot of existing built-up interior areas to route around. At 800 kilovolts HVDC line losses are only 5% per 2000 km: https://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bitstream/JRC97720/ld-na-27527-en-n.pdf https://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bitstream/J... (See page 11)
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  Yeah, people really underestimate how efficient HVDC has become. Even that doc is outdated - it was published in 2015 so likely based on 2013/2014 figures. Modern projects, e.g. ultra HVDC (1100KV) in China are seeing more like 1.5%/1,000KM losses: http://en.people.cn/n3/2018/0622/c90000-9474097.html http://en.people.cn/n3/2018/0622/c90000-9474097.html
  - blitzar 4y ago
    Australia is ~4,000km wide, so ~6% - totally manageable if it is needed.
    - zizee 4y ago
      Curious to know the relative costs of HVAC vs battery per megawatt/hour offset from peak solar production. 4000 KMs east to west is about 2.4 hours offset geographically. Would it be cheaper to have 2.4 hours of storage closer to the east coast of Australia, with solar farms close to the consumption? Or would building a 4000km HVAC transmission line from the west coast of Australia to the east coast be cheaper? I'd imagine there would be a tipping point where one option is more economical than the other. Personally, I'd like to see WA's electricity network connected through to SA, and connect SA's through to NSW, but I also like the idea of many independent microgrids for the resilancy they'd offer.
      - blitzar 4y ago
        The controversial conclusion I came to many years ago was all of the above ... I remember when the solar lobby was fighting the wind lobby fighting the hydro lobby to be the one true green energy source. It was and still is entirely pointless. Distributed independent microgrids with interconnects fed by a range of power generation methods and size the generation at >1.5x power needs. Refurbish and maintain fossil fuel to fill when needed, and ideally make them as modular as possible with turbine halls being convertable between different fuel types.
WalterBright 4y ago
> Losses wouldn’t be bad with HVDC Uh-oh. We're going to have to rewrite the history books on the current war between Edison and Tesla, this time with Edison as the victor!
wyager 4y ago
Great, let me know when we have economically viable HVDC grids built up. Renewables enthusiasts love to talk about counterfactual or hypothetical scenarios, but ignore the fact that we can't spontaneously leap to one of those scenarios.

philipkglass 4y ago

Australia seems especially well suited for long-distance transmission because development is so heavily weighted to the coasts; there's not a lot of existing built-up interior areas to route around. At 800 kilovolts HVDC line losses are only 5% per 2000 km: https://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bitstream/JRC97720/ld-na-27527-en-n.pdf https://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bitstream/J... (See page 11)

mikeyouse 4y ago
Yeah, people really underestimate how efficient HVDC has become. Even that doc is outdated - it was published in 2015 so likely based on 2013/2014 figures. Modern projects, e.g. ultra HVDC (1100KV) in China are seeing more like 1.5%/1,000KM losses: http://en.people.cn/n3/2018/0622/c90000-9474097.html http://en.people.cn/n3/2018/0622/c90000-9474097.html
- blitzar 4y ago
  Australia is ~4,000km wide, so ~6% - totally manageable if it is needed.
  - zizee 4y ago
    Curious to know the relative costs of HVAC vs battery per megawatt/hour offset from peak solar production. 4000 KMs east to west is about 2.4 hours offset geographically. Would it be cheaper to have 2.4 hours of storage closer to the east coast of Australia, with solar farms close to the consumption? Or would building a 4000km HVAC transmission line from the west coast of Australia to the east coast be cheaper? I'd imagine there would be a tipping point where one option is more economical than the other. Personally, I'd like to see WA's electricity network connected through to SA, and connect SA's through to NSW, but I also like the idea of many independent microgrids for the resilancy they'd offer.
    - blitzar 4y ago
      The controversial conclusion I came to many years ago was all of the above ... I remember when the solar lobby was fighting the wind lobby fighting the hydro lobby to be the one true green energy source. It was and still is entirely pointless. Distributed independent microgrids with interconnects fed by a range of power generation methods and size the generation at >1.5x power needs. Refurbish and maintain fossil fuel to fill when needed, and ideally make them as modular as possible with turbine halls being convertable between different fuel types.

WalterBright 4y ago

> Losses wouldn’t be bad with HVDC Uh-oh. We're going to have to rewrite the history books on the current war between Edison and Tesla, this time with Edison as the victor!

wyager 4y ago

Great, let me know when we have economically viable HVDC grids built up. Renewables enthusiasts love to talk about counterfactual or hypothetical scenarios, but ignore the fact that we can't spontaneously leap to one of those scenarios.