8 ms·

No it doesn't. Ya, it's a 162 page manual and a huge pain and likely not worth it but the program doesn't make it less repairable. It was designed in such a way

No it doesn't. Ya, it's a 162 page manual and a huge pain and likely not worth it but the program doesn't make it less repairable. It was designed in such a way that makes repairing it a pain in the ass. Having the tooling and manual to do the repair doesn't make it less repairable. This headline makes no sense.

falcolas 4y ago
162 pages indicates that the item was not made to be repaired or replaced. 162 pages indicates that you're going to have to work around Apple's repair-hostile design to do a repair.
- tarentel 4y ago
  I definitely agree with you there. But the headline says it makes it "less repairable." If your car manufacturers changes all the bolts on your tires to use specialized tools and require you to read a book to understand it that makes your car less repairable. If they provide those tools and manual that doesn't make your car less repairable than it already was. My point is the title of this makes no sense.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    Titles rarely do. And sadly, if you want to thrive by producing content, you need to juice up the title a little. Yeah, I hate it too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2xHZPH5Sng https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2xHZPH5Sng But on topic, Apple's official stance, as provided by this repair manual, is that replacing a battery requires you to replace vast portions of the final product. Car analogy time: Got bad seals on your block? Send us the engine; who knows what kind of damage those bad seals have done. Oh, and only we, your car manufacturer can get you the tools and an authorized engine replacement. Can the battery be replaced without the assembly? iFixit says yes. Is this how Apple does it? Sure, but it's generating a lot of cost and waste. They can write both of. Can you?
    - dkonofalski 4y ago
      The article and manual everyone is talking about explicitly say that the top case situation is temporary and that Apple will offer battery-only parts in the future. Stop making mountains out of molehills. They're attempting to cover as many repairs with the same parts as possible. This is a supply chain issue not an intentional requirement to force people to replace parts that don't need replacement.
    - tpmoney 4y ago
      The keyboard and upper case enclosure doesn’t constitute “vast portions of the final product” to me. That still leaves the display, logic board, audio board, io board, fans, track pad, lower enclosure and all the misc parts like antennas, hinges etc. Should it be possible to replace just the battery and not need to replace the entire top case with it? Sure. And for some of their laptops you can (like the MBA) and for the others they say they will be providing separate versions in the future. But we should be clear here that you’re not replacing “vast portions” of the laptop even if you did it now. You have to remove those items to replace the component, but remove and reinstall is not replace.
- MrFoof 4y ago
  The official workshop manual from the manufacturer for my car (which includes full engine assembly!) — the same one used by all of its dealer techs - is over 6400 pages. It is loaded with an absurd number of detailed diagrams, torque specifications, required tools, checklists, etc. Does that make my car less repairable? Or does it provide all the information necessary for someone to correctly perform repair or maintenance, including all required pre- and post- processes related to the affected area?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - falcolas 4y ago
    Does your car repair manual dictate that replacing the battery and alternator includes also replacing the unibody (including the driver controls, though not the seats) with a unit provided only by the car manufacturer? Having used a few workshop manuals, I do get your point. But those manuals provide the advantage of actually letting you repair cars without having to replace the entire unibody when you change an oil filter (though you'll often have to disassemble vast portions of the car to get at simple consumables these days).
    - tpmoney 4y ago
      I imagine the replacement process for an EVs battery pack also is involved and requires a lot of work. I also imagine the official replacement process will not involve individual cell replacement and will likely be an entire pack that may also include BMS units or other components.
      - smoldesu 4y ago
        > I also imagine the official replacement process will not involve individual cell replacement Since when has it involved that? Even back when cellphones were repairable, trying to fix a broken battery by manipulating the cells is a suicide mission. I get that you're trying to illustrate that "density has a repairability cost", but I think that's entirely redundant, since: - Apple can throw money at this issue and fix it. No private interest on the planet has even remotely as much research funding as Apple. If companies like Framework can manage it, then so can Apple. - Apple's devices are getting larger, and their SOCs are getting more dense. There's more room inside the Macbook Pro than ever before, which leaves plenty of space to reinforce the device and improve it's disassembly process. - Making repairable/sustainable technology doesn't seem to impede any of Apple's goals. Adding an M.2 slot on the Macbook would have no perceivable downside. Removing the internal adhesive could help improve the device's lifespan and make it possible to reassemble without additional components. Offering a matte/plastic display option would also give users the option to own a Macbook that doesn't break when it falls from waist height. So, I don't really buy this. When people come forward and speculate on Apple's behalf, I feel like they're forgetting that we're talking about the most powerful company on Earth. Apple can move mountains, and you're trying to justify why they can't offer more granular repair options? This is the exact same supply-chain pettiness that people used to applaud Apple for, and now that everyone feels the impact of it, why do we still defend them for abusing capitalism and hurting everyone in the process?
- acomjean 4y ago
  I replaced my laptop fan after it was grinding. The full disassemble/upgrade manual was like 30 pages. It is a system 76 machine which is just a clevo machine. edit (30 pages). (they post they're own manuals on github..) https://github.com/system76/docs/blob/gh-pages/service-manuals/pdfs/Oryx/oryp5-service-manual.pdf https://github.com/system76/docs/blob/gh-pages/service-manua...
- renewiltord 4y ago
  This is why I argue that code should not have documentation. The more documentation and comments you have, the less modifiable the code is. If you have 162 pages of documentation, your code must be crap. If you have one page of documentation and it reads like it was sent through Translation Party, your code must be awesome.
woojoo666 4y ago
The actual ifixit article title is "Apple’s Self-Repair Program Manages to Make MacBooks Seem Less Repairable". The "seem" here is important, and was excluded in the 9to5mac article title

falcolas 4y ago

162 pages indicates that the item was not made to be repaired or replaced. 162 pages indicates that you're going to have to work around Apple's repair-hostile design to do a repair.

tarentel 4y ago
I definitely agree with you there. But the headline says it makes it "less repairable." If your car manufacturers changes all the bolts on your tires to use specialized tools and require you to read a book to understand it that makes your car less repairable. If they provide those tools and manual that doesn't make your car less repairable than it already was. My point is the title of this makes no sense.
- falcolas 4y ago
  Titles rarely do. And sadly, if you want to thrive by producing content, you need to juice up the title a little. Yeah, I hate it too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2xHZPH5Sng https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2xHZPH5Sng But on topic, Apple's official stance, as provided by this repair manual, is that replacing a battery requires you to replace vast portions of the final product. Car analogy time: Got bad seals on your block? Send us the engine; who knows what kind of damage those bad seals have done. Oh, and only we, your car manufacturer can get you the tools and an authorized engine replacement. Can the battery be replaced without the assembly? iFixit says yes. Is this how Apple does it? Sure, but it's generating a lot of cost and waste. They can write both of. Can you?
  - dkonofalski 4y ago
    The article and manual everyone is talking about explicitly say that the top case situation is temporary and that Apple will offer battery-only parts in the future. Stop making mountains out of molehills. They're attempting to cover as many repairs with the same parts as possible. This is a supply chain issue not an intentional requirement to force people to replace parts that don't need replacement.
  - tpmoney 4y ago
    The keyboard and upper case enclosure doesn’t constitute “vast portions of the final product” to me. That still leaves the display, logic board, audio board, io board, fans, track pad, lower enclosure and all the misc parts like antennas, hinges etc. Should it be possible to replace just the battery and not need to replace the entire top case with it? Sure. And for some of their laptops you can (like the MBA) and for the others they say they will be providing separate versions in the future. But we should be clear here that you’re not replacing “vast portions” of the laptop even if you did it now. You have to remove those items to replace the component, but remove and reinstall is not replace.
MrFoof 4y ago
The official workshop manual from the manufacturer for my car (which includes full engine assembly!) — the same one used by all of its dealer techs - is over 6400 pages. It is loaded with an absurd number of detailed diagrams, torque specifications, required tools, checklists, etc. Does that make my car less repairable? Or does it provide all the information necessary for someone to correctly perform repair or maintenance, including all required pre- and post- processes related to the affected area?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- falcolas 4y ago
  Does your car repair manual dictate that replacing the battery and alternator includes also replacing the unibody (including the driver controls, though not the seats) with a unit provided only by the car manufacturer? Having used a few workshop manuals, I do get your point. But those manuals provide the advantage of actually letting you repair cars without having to replace the entire unibody when you change an oil filter (though you'll often have to disassemble vast portions of the car to get at simple consumables these days).
  - tpmoney 4y ago
    I imagine the replacement process for an EVs battery pack also is involved and requires a lot of work. I also imagine the official replacement process will not involve individual cell replacement and will likely be an entire pack that may also include BMS units or other components.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      > I also imagine the official replacement process will not involve individual cell replacement Since when has it involved that? Even back when cellphones were repairable, trying to fix a broken battery by manipulating the cells is a suicide mission. I get that you're trying to illustrate that "density has a repairability cost", but I think that's entirely redundant, since: - Apple can throw money at this issue and fix it. No private interest on the planet has even remotely as much research funding as Apple. If companies like Framework can manage it, then so can Apple. - Apple's devices are getting larger, and their SOCs are getting more dense. There's more room inside the Macbook Pro than ever before, which leaves plenty of space to reinforce the device and improve it's disassembly process. - Making repairable/sustainable technology doesn't seem to impede any of Apple's goals. Adding an M.2 slot on the Macbook would have no perceivable downside. Removing the internal adhesive could help improve the device's lifespan and make it possible to reassemble without additional components. Offering a matte/plastic display option would also give users the option to own a Macbook that doesn't break when it falls from waist height. So, I don't really buy this. When people come forward and speculate on Apple's behalf, I feel like they're forgetting that we're talking about the most powerful company on Earth. Apple can move mountains, and you're trying to justify why they can't offer more granular repair options? This is the exact same supply-chain pettiness that people used to applaud Apple for, and now that everyone feels the impact of it, why do we still defend them for abusing capitalism and hurting everyone in the process?
acomjean 4y ago
I replaced my laptop fan after it was grinding. The full disassemble/upgrade manual was like 30 pages. It is a system 76 machine which is just a clevo machine. edit (30 pages). (they post they're own manuals on github..) https://github.com/system76/docs/blob/gh-pages/service-manuals/pdfs/Oryx/oryp5-service-manual.pdf https://github.com/system76/docs/blob/gh-pages/service-manua...
renewiltord 4y ago
This is why I argue that code should not have documentation. The more documentation and comments you have, the less modifiable the code is. If you have 162 pages of documentation, your code must be crap. If you have one page of documentation and it reads like it was sent through Translation Party, your code must be awesome.

woojoo666 4y ago

The actual ifixit article title is "Apple’s Self-Repair Program Manages to Make MacBooks Seem Less Repairable". The "seem" here is important, and was excluded in the 9to5mac article title