6 ms·

Biden to Announce $10,000 Student Loan Forgiveness Plan

14 points by crhulls 4y ago

notch656a 4y ago
Test0129 4y ago
Absolutely insane. Country's debt soars, inflation is higher than it's been in the last 40 years, and Biden's idea of good policy is to pay off debt for people who make bad choices and continue to postpone federal loan payments. I constantly hear that this is a good thing and I shouldn't be upset that I spent years of my life living on beans and rice to pay off my debts. I was fortunate that I was able to work my way into my position now where I am quite comfortable. We shouldn't reward people for poor choices. That includes both students taking $XXX,XXX dollars for a worthless degree, and the lenders who funded them because the government made it so the debt is LITERALLY risk-free. A better solution would be to allow students to declare bankruptcy. Instead of forcing the lenders to make better choices on who they fund (which should honestly only be degrees with an NPV > 0), they punish the middle class again with yet another regressive tax.
- bobkazamakis 4y ago
  - notch656a 4y ago
    I have nothing against an educated populace. I have nothing but love for the tax-paying poors who paid for my entire publicly sponsored full ride, or for the cashier wage slave whos inflation/taxes are going towards paying 10k for my wife's high earning professional degree so we can buy a few nicer bottles of wine and a Hawaiian vacation. Truly, I thank you all! Now get back to work, my kids want the same deal.
  - Test0129 4y ago
    > United States has absolutely shit public options for secondary education. Do you have something against an educated populace? The necessity of higher education is one of the greatest scams pulled on Americans. This is beating around the bush. The much greater problem is that cheap student loans have created a perverse economy in which a higher education degree (and therefore debt) is required to make money. The vast majority of the country is powered but what I imagine (since you used "chud" to describe me) as country bumpkins. The VAST, VAST majority of the country's production is done by people plowing farms and welding metal. Are these people not educated? Or does educated mean only a liberal arts degree to you? > Ah yes, THIS is punishing the middle class -- forgiving their loan debt. Subsidies to farmers? Totally cool. PPP Forgiveness, AWESOME! Defense contracts, great! This is a strawman not worth answering. I never implied any of those were good either. > This money is literally going to be piped straight back into the economy at a much needed time It will not. The M2 money supply showed us that during covid the vast majority of people stashed their wealth. With a potential incoming recession and economic disaster due to policies like this looming over our heads, people of less means will do the logical thing and store cash (making the situation worse). I really loathe your post and the assumptions it makes about me. Simply careless posting attacking a position you manufactured about me. Arguing in bad faith is worse than not arguing at all.
    - IceMetalPunk 4y ago
      > The necessity of higher education is one of the greatest scams pulled on Americans. Education is required for society to make progress in all areas. There is, of course, the option for people to self-educate, but look around and tell me if you truly believe the majority are capable of that. Keep in mind that most people who say "do your research" have no idea what actual research is, anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers have screwed over public health efforts based on following misinformation and ignorance instead of evidence, etc. What I'm saying is that while unstructured education is an option, it's not one most people know how to do well, and with education being fundamental for human progress, that leaves structured education being just as fundamental. To say it's not is to promote an ignorant populace who can't tell the difference between evidence and swindling.
  - Jsebast23 4y ago
    'This money is literally going to be piped straight back into the economy at a much needed time.' You remind me of this guy who was explaining to me how he would charge a battery bank with a battery charger that he plugged to a DC/AC converter, and then wire the DC/AC converter back from the battery bank, which would give him free electric power forever.
- legitster 4y ago
  It's especially weird that they are making no plans to curtail these type of loans in the future. They will continue to offer low-cost subsidized loans, and schools will continue to push them on students.
- AmVess 4y ago
  Can't let students loans be written off in BK, because people going to med and law school will simply write them off. This is why they were made BK proof to begin with. The better approach is to cap the total cost of an education to what a graduate will earn in their first year in the workforce. $200k Gender Studies degrees will vanish in an instant.
osipov 4y ago
legitster 4y ago
Inflation is already debt forgiveness. Since my subsidized loans had interest well below inflation, I decided to pay the absolute minimum possible payment on them for last 9 years. In that time, they have lost 37% of their real value just through inflation alone. I always felt bad for my friends who insisted on paying off their loans as soon as possible. And now, mine are about to disappear completely for free!
- IceMetalPunk 4y ago
  37% in almost 10 years is not forgiveness. I haven't really paid attention to the valuation of my many student loans over the years, but if they'd lost 37% of their initial value in 10 years, they'd still be valued at $38k after a decade.
IceMetalPunk 4y ago
As someone who graduated with $60k + in debt, despite multiple grants and financial aid, and who currently makes under the limit... I highly appreciate this. Education is foundational to society, and I've experienced both university education and public college education enough to know that difference in quality. Nothing against people who can only afford public college, but the quality is subpar -- and the fact that there are people who can only afford that is the problem. We really need education to be more accessible; making education expensive is, whether intentional or not, a way to keep poor people poor. Education too expensive? Welp, too bad, you've got to find a job that (a) doesn't require a degree and (b) doesn't require skills or knowledge taught in universities. It'll probably pay less, so oh well if you were hoping to make enough money to get out of your socioeconomic hole. Inb4 "but you did it": I was lucky enough to have a few relatively rich cousins who would cosign loans for me, lucky enough to be given opportunities by university department heads that I wasn't owed, and even then I almost didn't get that degree. And still, despite all that, $60k+ in debt. No one is asking for "handouts". People are asking for a society in which exposure to good ideas, and guidance on how to determine which ideas are good at all, isn't reserved for people with stuffed bank accounts or rich parents. And that's just common sense for anyone with any empathy or hope for the future of the species.
- sul_tasto 4y ago
  Then the democrats should have passed legislation targeting the root of the college affordability problem, not a one-off. This legislation doesn’t solve anything.
  - IceMetalPunk 4y ago
    Someone else said something similar, that this is "unfair" because it doesn't solve the root of the problem. We're all STEM folks here, most of us are developers, so let me ask you a hypothetical: imagine you're developing an app. You develop a proof-of-concept and show it to the client. They turn to you and say, "we're not paying you for the time you took to make this; it's not the full app". What would you think? Progress is not binary. This policy doesn't solve the whole problem, but it is a step in the right direction. Consider it a proof of concept: if this policy can show the feasibility of forgiving existing student loan debt that's piled up over many decades, then it should pave the way for future policies which can better subsidize new loans -- a far lower cost. Obviously, the root of the problem lies with privatization of education and capitalism, but those are things so ingrained in our society that we basically can't expect to ever fix them. Working our way towards better subsidies is the next best goal.
nodesocket 4y ago
In the middle of the worst inflation most people have seen in their lifetimes, elected politicians as a measure to attempt to keep control and appease their base once again hand out free money. What do they really expect to happen? People are going to go out and spend it on goods and services (let's be honest mostly frivolously). Furthermore, what kind of message does this send? This is NOT how the REAL WORLD works. It only further does a disservice to millennials who already have a outrageous sense of entitlement, lack of work ethic, and as a whole wonder why they are in debt, don't own homes, and break even month to month.
- oceanplexian 4y ago
  This IS how the real world works now. Don’t think it will stop at student debt, 20 years ago government bailouts were unthinkable, now we did it for the GFC, the ACA, COVID, and now Student Loans. A decade from now the government will be printing money to pay off car loans for low income borrowers who got themselves underwater buying a $50k BMW. And similar bailouts will be done on the backs of the working class, at least until the financial system collapses.
crhulls 4y ago
It is disappointing to me that most of the comments that talk about personal accountability are being reflexively downvoted. We probably shouldn't have bailed out the banks in the GFC or more recently forgiven PPP loans to business who didn't need it or previously spent recklessly on buybacks. We also shouldn't have working class people, or people who responsibly paid off their loans, subsidize others who made unfavorable economic choices. Socialism for both individuals and businesses comes with extreme moral hazard. Real capitalism means business go under - you get the wins and the losses. Similarly, part of what made America great is the individualism that you are responsible for your own outcome. Clearly we have structural issues, but this was a real thing - this sends a terrible message. Why be responsible if the government will bail you out? Why take accountability for your decisions when our leaders are telling you that other people are at fault for your bad choices? This also directly leads to the extremism in politics. Liberals go to the Bernie camp because they see how big business gets unfairly subsidized. Conservatives go to the Trump camp because they see socialist policies stomping down and belittling the non-college educated working class, and to add insult to injury, they are now directly paying for it.
- AmVess 4y ago
  Personal responsibility is seen as a character flaw in modern USA. Too many people don't want to work, and they want everything free. Free education, free food, free housing....and off with the heads of the people who actually have to pay for all this "free" stuff.

14 points by crhulls 4y ago

Absolutely insane. Country's debt soars, inflation is higher than it's been in the last 40 years, and Biden's idea of good policy is to pay off debt for people who make bad choices and continue to postpone federal loan payments. I constantly hear that this is a good thing and I shouldn't be upset that I spent years of my life living on beans and rice to pay off my debts. I was fortunate that I was able to work my way into my position now where I am quite comfortable. We shouldn't reward people for poor choices. That includes both students taking $XXX,XXX dollars for a worthless degree, and the lenders who funded them because the government made it so the debt is LITERALLY risk-free. A better solution would be to allow students to declare bankruptcy. Instead of forcing the lenders to make better choices on who they fund (which should honestly only be degrees with an NPV > 0), they punish the middle class again with yet another regressive tax.

bobkazamakis 4y ago
- notch656a 4y ago
  I have nothing against an educated populace. I have nothing but love for the tax-paying poors who paid for my entire publicly sponsored full ride, or for the cashier wage slave whos inflation/taxes are going towards paying 10k for my wife's high earning professional degree so we can buy a few nicer bottles of wine and a Hawaiian vacation. Truly, I thank you all! Now get back to work, my kids want the same deal.
- Test0129 4y ago
  > United States has absolutely shit public options for secondary education. Do you have something against an educated populace? The necessity of higher education is one of the greatest scams pulled on Americans. This is beating around the bush. The much greater problem is that cheap student loans have created a perverse economy in which a higher education degree (and therefore debt) is required to make money. The vast majority of the country is powered but what I imagine (since you used "chud" to describe me) as country bumpkins. The VAST, VAST majority of the country's production is done by people plowing farms and welding metal. Are these people not educated? Or does educated mean only a liberal arts degree to you? > Ah yes, THIS is punishing the middle class -- forgiving their loan debt. Subsidies to farmers? Totally cool. PPP Forgiveness, AWESOME! Defense contracts, great! This is a strawman not worth answering. I never implied any of those were good either. > This money is literally going to be piped straight back into the economy at a much needed time It will not. The M2 money supply showed us that during covid the vast majority of people stashed their wealth. With a potential incoming recession and economic disaster due to policies like this looming over our heads, people of less means will do the logical thing and store cash (making the situation worse). I really loathe your post and the assumptions it makes about me. Simply careless posting attacking a position you manufactured about me. Arguing in bad faith is worse than not arguing at all.
  - IceMetalPunk 4y ago
    > The necessity of higher education is one of the greatest scams pulled on Americans. Education is required for society to make progress in all areas. There is, of course, the option for people to self-educate, but look around and tell me if you truly believe the majority are capable of that. Keep in mind that most people who say "do your research" have no idea what actual research is, anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers have screwed over public health efforts based on following misinformation and ignorance instead of evidence, etc. What I'm saying is that while unstructured education is an option, it's not one most people know how to do well, and with education being fundamental for human progress, that leaves structured education being just as fundamental. To say it's not is to promote an ignorant populace who can't tell the difference between evidence and swindling.
- Jsebast23 4y ago
  'This money is literally going to be piped straight back into the economy at a much needed time.' You remind me of this guy who was explaining to me how he would charge a battery bank with a battery charger that he plugged to a DC/AC converter, and then wire the DC/AC converter back from the battery bank, which would give him free electric power forever.
legitster 4y ago
It's especially weird that they are making no plans to curtail these type of loans in the future. They will continue to offer low-cost subsidized loans, and schools will continue to push them on students.
AmVess 4y ago
Can't let students loans be written off in BK, because people going to med and law school will simply write them off. This is why they were made BK proof to begin with. The better approach is to cap the total cost of an education to what a graduate will earn in their first year in the workforce. $200k Gender Studies degrees will vanish in an instant.

osipov 4y ago

legitster 4y ago

Inflation is already debt forgiveness. Since my subsidized loans had interest well below inflation, I decided to pay the absolute minimum possible payment on them for last 9 years. In that time, they have lost 37% of their real value just through inflation alone. I always felt bad for my friends who insisted on paying off their loans as soon as possible. And now, mine are about to disappear completely for free!

IceMetalPunk 4y ago
37% in almost 10 years is not forgiveness. I haven't really paid attention to the valuation of my many student loans over the years, but if they'd lost 37% of their initial value in 10 years, they'd still be valued at $38k after a decade.

IceMetalPunk 4y ago

As someone who graduated with $60k + in debt, despite multiple grants and financial aid, and who currently makes under the limit... I highly appreciate this. Education is foundational to society, and I've experienced both university education and public college education enough to know that difference in quality. Nothing against people who can only afford public college, but the quality is subpar -- and the fact that there are people who can only afford that is the problem. We really need education to be more accessible; making education expensive is, whether intentional or not, a way to keep poor people poor. Education too expensive? Welp, too bad, you've got to find a job that (a) doesn't require a degree and (b) doesn't require skills or knowledge taught in universities. It'll probably pay less, so oh well if you were hoping to make enough money to get out of your socioeconomic hole. Inb4 "but you did it": I was lucky enough to have a few relatively rich cousins who would cosign loans for me, lucky enough to be given opportunities by university department heads that I wasn't owed, and even then I almost didn't get that degree. And still, despite all that, $60k+ in debt. No one is asking for "handouts". People are asking for a society in which exposure to good ideas, and guidance on how to determine which ideas are good at all, isn't reserved for people with stuffed bank accounts or rich parents. And that's just common sense for anyone with any empathy or hope for the future of the species.

sul_tasto 4y ago
Then the democrats should have passed legislation targeting the root of the college affordability problem, not a one-off. This legislation doesn’t solve anything.
- IceMetalPunk 4y ago
  Someone else said something similar, that this is "unfair" because it doesn't solve the root of the problem. We're all STEM folks here, most of us are developers, so let me ask you a hypothetical: imagine you're developing an app. You develop a proof-of-concept and show it to the client. They turn to you and say, "we're not paying you for the time you took to make this; it's not the full app". What would you think? Progress is not binary. This policy doesn't solve the whole problem, but it is a step in the right direction. Consider it a proof of concept: if this policy can show the feasibility of forgiving existing student loan debt that's piled up over many decades, then it should pave the way for future policies which can better subsidize new loans -- a far lower cost. Obviously, the root of the problem lies with privatization of education and capitalism, but those are things so ingrained in our society that we basically can't expect to ever fix them. Working our way towards better subsidies is the next best goal.

nodesocket 4y ago

In the middle of the worst inflation most people have seen in their lifetimes, elected politicians as a measure to attempt to keep control and appease their base once again hand out free money. What do they really expect to happen? People are going to go out and spend it on goods and services (let's be honest mostly frivolously). Furthermore, what kind of message does this send? This is NOT how the REAL WORLD works. It only further does a disservice to millennials who already have a outrageous sense of entitlement, lack of work ethic, and as a whole wonder why they are in debt, don't own homes, and break even month to month.

oceanplexian 4y ago
This IS how the real world works now. Don’t think it will stop at student debt, 20 years ago government bailouts were unthinkable, now we did it for the GFC, the ACA, COVID, and now Student Loans. A decade from now the government will be printing money to pay off car loans for low income borrowers who got themselves underwater buying a $50k BMW. And similar bailouts will be done on the backs of the working class, at least until the financial system collapses.

crhulls 4y ago

It is disappointing to me that most of the comments that talk about personal accountability are being reflexively downvoted. We probably shouldn't have bailed out the banks in the GFC or more recently forgiven PPP loans to business who didn't need it or previously spent recklessly on buybacks. We also shouldn't have working class people, or people who responsibly paid off their loans, subsidize others who made unfavorable economic choices. Socialism for both individuals and businesses comes with extreme moral hazard. Real capitalism means business go under - you get the wins and the losses. Similarly, part of what made America great is the individualism that you are responsible for your own outcome. Clearly we have structural issues, but this was a real thing - this sends a terrible message. Why be responsible if the government will bail you out? Why take accountability for your decisions when our leaders are telling you that other people are at fault for your bad choices? This also directly leads to the extremism in politics. Liberals go to the Bernie camp because they see how big business gets unfairly subsidized. Conservatives go to the Trump camp because they see socialist policies stomping down and belittling the non-college educated working class, and to add insult to injury, they are now directly paying for it.

AmVess 4y ago
Personal responsibility is seen as a character flaw in modern USA. Too many people don't want to work, and they want everything free. Free education, free food, free housing....and off with the heads of the people who actually have to pay for all this "free" stuff.