4 ms·

> Scientific studies have shown that decisions are registered in the brain’s motor cortex milliseconds before a person decides to move, suggesting that in the b

> Scientific studies have shown that decisions are registered in the brain’s motor cortex milliseconds before a person decides to move, suggesting that in the brief moments before you become aware of what you will do next, your brain has already decided your next step. This is probably one of the most important yet overlooked findings in all of science. Free will as it's normally conceived is an illusion. The conscious mind is along for the ride, not in charge. The feeling of being in charge is an illusion. (It's pretty easy to reveal this to yourself: just try to change one major habit. Or try to think of a single thought (like a red triangle or pink elephant) for more than a few moments.) Anyway from there the question is raised, "if there is no free will, what do you do with this information?" It should be immediately obvious this is a foolish question: we just said there's no free will so you don't do anything with the information, because you don't do anything at all.

notshift 4y ago
I can focus on a red triangle for as long as I would like. I can also change any of my major habits that I would like (and I have done so recently). I don't think that study shows that we don't control our own actions. Certainly 99%+ of our actions on a daily basis are instinctual/unconscious, but my unconscious is something that I consciously shape and develop over time. Nobody has perfect agency in a particular moment; your immediate choices are the outcome of the agency you exercised over the past months and years. You still have the free will to change, it just takes time.
- carapace 4y ago
  You're an extreme outlier, like one in a million. Were you always like this or did you become this way?
  - notshift 4y ago
    Am I an outlier? I think probably most people could focus on a red triangle for 10 minutes or something, if they wanted to, to "prove" that they had free will. Changing major habits is much harder, I would agree, but it's just something you have to work at & study. Nobody will change if they aren't motivated to do so. I don't think that really is a free will issue.
howlin 4y ago
> The conscious mind is along for the ride, not in charge. If you look at extremely simple choices, you may be able to say this. But these generally aren't the sorts of decisions we walk about when we talk about free will. Perhaps an analogy to business can help make the distinction. A CEO is only going to be informed after the fact, if at all, of the minor details of how a business operates. But the CEO is setting much broader directions and is indirectly regulating those who make the minor decisions. Or more logically pedantically, you could simply say that the existence of some choices that happen before conscious awareness of them doesn't mean all choices happen that way.
- carapace 4y ago
  Fair point. I think we should check that out too, wire people up to sensors and watch what the brain does during more complex and involved decisions.
mooselaker 4y ago
To be precise, the study demonstrated that the decision is registered before the person is able to report having decided. In other words, the oversight of consciousness is simply delayed. This seems perfectly reasonable: the brain is mechanical, there are limits on "bandwidth" and simultaneity. > Or try to think of a single thought (like a red triangle or pink elephant) for more than a few moments. This is something that people can and have trained themselves on. It's far from impossible, even if it's not a simple skill.
- carapace 4y ago
  > To be precise, the study demonstrated that the decision is registered before the person is able to report having decided. In other words, the oversight of consciousness is simply delayed. This seems perfectly reasonable: the brain is mechanical, there are limits on "bandwidth" and simultaneity. Good point, and I appreciate the clarification. It still seems to suggest (to me) that the "locus" (if there is one) of decision making is in the unconscious portion of the mind, no? > This is something that people can and have trained themselves on. It's far from impossible, even if it's not a simple skill. This is what I was hoping to talk about: the idea that we (might) start out as "meat robots" but we have the capacity to develop free will and become "real people" (whatever that might mean.) What if free will is a matter of degree?
  - mooselaker 4y ago
    Interesting angle, that free will has a quantity. I can certainly see an argument that a more intelligent being has more freedom -- because it has more options available -- so perhaps also more free will.
philote 4y ago
> just try to change one major habit So by that logic, if there is free will I should be able to fly if I want to? We're still bound by the laws of reality, including our own brain chemistry. Our wills have to work in the confines of the reality they try to manipulate.
HarHarVeryFunny 4y ago
> Anyway from there the question is raised, "if there is no free will, what do you do with this information?" It should be immediately obvious this is a foolish question: we just said there's no free will so you don't do anything with the information, because you don't do anything at all. That's not to say that you (meaning your brain/body) might behave differently in the future as a result of deducing or being exposed to this idea, but nothing you can do about that. Evolution may have selected to strengthen the illusion of free will (although the illusion itself is just due our innate association of actions with actors), since I'd imagine believing you have no control over your actions would be pretty deadly!
godshatter 4y ago
> (It's pretty easy to reveal this to yourself: just try to change one major habit. Or try to think of a single thought (like a red triangle or pink elephant) for more than a few moments.) I don't have the ability to visualize at all (I have aphantasia), so I can't comment about visualizing triangles. I have and do change habits in small ways almost daily, and have made some big changes when necessary. I think there is a misconception that free will involves immediate results with one simple thought that's more akin to magic than anything else. "I now no longer crave ice cream!", "Poof!", done. I think my aphantasia has helped me realize how much of our brains are not directly controllable. When a lot of people work through a problem consciously, I'm usually starting to do that then "fading away", coming back only later with or without a solution (sort of like highway hypnosis). Maybe everyone does this, but I don't hear it talked about that often, and people around me have found it strange when I do this around them. Must not be completely uncommon I guess because the phrase "lost in thought" is pretty common. I think of our brains as housing more than just the conscious "me", it also involves other portions of the brain that aren't directly accessible. Thus we try to affect other areas of the brain in different ways. Sometimes a simple command works, other times we have to trick or cajole or excite another portion of us to do it for us, sometimes many many times (such as when instilling a new habit or changing an old one). If this cajoling, intimidating, engaging, or influencing isn't exerting free will, I don't know what is. ...unless the other parts of our brains are showing us unreliable information in order to get us to make the changes they want us to make, which I hope isn't true. But that's a fight for control which would imply free will anyway, I guess.

notshift 4y ago

I can focus on a red triangle for as long as I would like. I can also change any of my major habits that I would like (and I have done so recently). I don't think that study shows that we don't control our own actions. Certainly 99%+ of our actions on a daily basis are instinctual/unconscious, but my unconscious is something that I consciously shape and develop over time. Nobody has perfect agency in a particular moment; your immediate choices are the outcome of the agency you exercised over the past months and years. You still have the free will to change, it just takes time.

carapace 4y ago
You're an extreme outlier, like one in a million. Were you always like this or did you become this way?
- notshift 4y ago
  Am I an outlier? I think probably most people could focus on a red triangle for 10 minutes or something, if they wanted to, to "prove" that they had free will. Changing major habits is much harder, I would agree, but it's just something you have to work at & study. Nobody will change if they aren't motivated to do so. I don't think that really is a free will issue.

howlin 4y ago

> The conscious mind is along for the ride, not in charge. If you look at extremely simple choices, you may be able to say this. But these generally aren't the sorts of decisions we walk about when we talk about free will. Perhaps an analogy to business can help make the distinction. A CEO is only going to be informed after the fact, if at all, of the minor details of how a business operates. But the CEO is setting much broader directions and is indirectly regulating those who make the minor decisions. Or more logically pedantically, you could simply say that the existence of some choices that happen before conscious awareness of them doesn't mean all choices happen that way.

carapace 4y ago
Fair point. I think we should check that out too, wire people up to sensors and watch what the brain does during more complex and involved decisions.

mooselaker 4y ago

To be precise, the study demonstrated that the decision is registered before the person is able to report having decided. In other words, the oversight of consciousness is simply delayed. This seems perfectly reasonable: the brain is mechanical, there are limits on "bandwidth" and simultaneity. > Or try to think of a single thought (like a red triangle or pink elephant) for more than a few moments. This is something that people can and have trained themselves on. It's far from impossible, even if it's not a simple skill.

carapace 4y ago
> To be precise, the study demonstrated that the decision is registered before the person is able to report having decided. In other words, the oversight of consciousness is simply delayed. This seems perfectly reasonable: the brain is mechanical, there are limits on "bandwidth" and simultaneity. Good point, and I appreciate the clarification. It still seems to suggest (to me) that the "locus" (if there is one) of decision making is in the unconscious portion of the mind, no? > This is something that people can and have trained themselves on. It's far from impossible, even if it's not a simple skill. This is what I was hoping to talk about: the idea that we (might) start out as "meat robots" but we have the capacity to develop free will and become "real people" (whatever that might mean.) What if free will is a matter of degree?
- mooselaker 4y ago
  Interesting angle, that free will has a quantity. I can certainly see an argument that a more intelligent being has more freedom -- because it has more options available -- so perhaps also more free will.

philote 4y ago

> just try to change one major habit So by that logic, if there is free will I should be able to fly if I want to? We're still bound by the laws of reality, including our own brain chemistry. Our wills have to work in the confines of the reality they try to manipulate.

HarHarVeryFunny 4y ago

> Anyway from there the question is raised, "if there is no free will, what do you do with this information?" It should be immediately obvious this is a foolish question: we just said there's no free will so you don't do anything with the information, because you don't do anything at all. That's not to say that you (meaning your brain/body) might behave differently in the future as a result of deducing or being exposed to this idea, but nothing you can do about that. Evolution may have selected to strengthen the illusion of free will (although the illusion itself is just due our innate association of actions with actors), since I'd imagine believing you have no control over your actions would be pretty deadly!

godshatter 4y ago

> (It's pretty easy to reveal this to yourself: just try to change one major habit. Or try to think of a single thought (like a red triangle or pink elephant) for more than a few moments.) I don't have the ability to visualize at all (I have aphantasia), so I can't comment about visualizing triangles. I have and do change habits in small ways almost daily, and have made some big changes when necessary. I think there is a misconception that free will involves immediate results with one simple thought that's more akin to magic than anything else. "I now no longer crave ice cream!", "Poof!", done. I think my aphantasia has helped me realize how much of our brains are not directly controllable. When a lot of people work through a problem consciously, I'm usually starting to do that then "fading away", coming back only later with or without a solution (sort of like highway hypnosis). Maybe everyone does this, but I don't hear it talked about that often, and people around me have found it strange when I do this around them. Must not be completely uncommon I guess because the phrase "lost in thought" is pretty common. I think of our brains as housing more than just the conscious "me", it also involves other portions of the brain that aren't directly accessible. Thus we try to affect other areas of the brain in different ways. Sometimes a simple command works, other times we have to trick or cajole or excite another portion of us to do it for us, sometimes many many times (such as when instilling a new habit or changing an old one). If this cajoling, intimidating, engaging, or influencing isn't exerting free will, I don't know what is. ...unless the other parts of our brains are showing us unreliable information in order to get us to make the changes they want us to make, which I hope isn't true. But that's a fight for control which would imply free will anyway, I guess.