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> This proves the validator is cheating. To whom? Who gets to decide to slash the funds? I caught you cheating and can prove it. You don't give a shit and con

> This proves the validator is cheating. To whom? Who gets to decide to slash the funds? I caught you cheating and can prove it. You don't give a shit and control 51% of the network. How do you get punished?

bhaak 4y ago
Social slashing. The honest parts of the community would organize and fork you away. If you were following the current events on Ethereum, this question has just arisen in the last weeks when the US sanctioned the privacy oriented Tornado Cash contract.
tromp 4y ago
You're right that for a slash to be publicly verifiable, the cheating evidence has to appear on-chain. So indeed there is the question of whether this evidence can be censored...
rglullis 4y ago
If you control 51% of the network (actually, with Ethereum PoS that number is 67%, as you need 2/3 of the validators to control consensus) and people know you are malicious, people will abandon the network and you will lose your investment because no one is interested in participating in a network controlled by a crook. It's no different from what would happen in PoW. Can you please stop with the concern trolling?
- spywaregorilla 4y ago
  > If you control 51% of the network (actually, with Ethereum PoS that number is 67%, as you need 2/3 of the validators to control consensus) and people know you are malicious, people will abandon the network and you will lose your investment because no one is interested in participating in a network controlled by a crook. If that 67% is also true of the slasher voting protocol, then that means you just need 33% of the network to avoid being slashed. Is that wrong? > Can you please stop with the concern trolling? Can you please stop trying to claim a moral high ground for no reason?
  - rglullis 4y ago
    > just need 33% of the network to avoid being slashed. Is that wrong? Yes, it is wrong.
    - spywaregorilla 4y ago
      How is it wrong? If you need 67% consensus to approve a transaction, and slashing is a transaction, then you can prevent slashing with 33%. What's incorrect about that reasoning?
      - rglullis 4y ago
        You won't be prevent slashing with 1/3, you will be merely delaying the block production each time is is proposed. Every time your 1/3 of the nodes attempt maliciously delays of production of a valid block, you will be slashed, and then you won't have 1/3 of the required funds at stake anymore.
        spywaregorilla 4y ago
        But... you can't be slashed unless a block gets processed that supports your slashing, correct?
        rglullis 4y ago
        Yes, but what is your point? You will be slashed no matter how hard you try to avoid it, unless you have 2/3 of the validators. The closer you are to 2/3, the faster you will be slashed. The system is self-estabilizing.
        pa7x1 4y ago
        There is an inactivity leak that gets triggered if you prevent with over 1/3 of your votes from the network reaching consensus. Inactive validators start to leak ETH from their stake until they become less than 1/3 of the total stake and cannot prevent consensus again. https://eth2book.info/altair/part2/incentives/inactivity https://eth2book.info/altair/part2/incentives/inactivity
ahahahahah 4y ago
The people you are discussing this with clearly have no idea how the system actually works and are far out of their depth as far as considering the ways malicious actors interact with it.
immibis 4y ago
If you control 51% of the network, the network is fucked. If you control 20% of the network, the other 80% is following the rules and colluding against you. (Even another 20% that are double-validating themselves are incentivized to slash you)

bhaak 4y ago

Social slashing. The honest parts of the community would organize and fork you away. If you were following the current events on Ethereum, this question has just arisen in the last weeks when the US sanctioned the privacy oriented Tornado Cash contract.

tromp 4y ago

You're right that for a slash to be publicly verifiable, the cheating evidence has to appear on-chain. So indeed there is the question of whether this evidence can be censored...

rglullis 4y ago

If you control 51% of the network (actually, with Ethereum PoS that number is 67%, as you need 2/3 of the validators to control consensus) and people know you are malicious, people will abandon the network and you will lose your investment because no one is interested in participating in a network controlled by a crook. It's no different from what would happen in PoW. Can you please stop with the concern trolling?

spywaregorilla 4y ago
> If you control 51% of the network (actually, with Ethereum PoS that number is 67%, as you need 2/3 of the validators to control consensus) and people know you are malicious, people will abandon the network and you will lose your investment because no one is interested in participating in a network controlled by a crook. If that 67% is also true of the slasher voting protocol, then that means you just need 33% of the network to avoid being slashed. Is that wrong? > Can you please stop with the concern trolling? Can you please stop trying to claim a moral high ground for no reason?
- rglullis 4y ago
  > just need 33% of the network to avoid being slashed. Is that wrong? Yes, it is wrong.
  - spywaregorilla 4y ago
    How is it wrong? If you need 67% consensus to approve a transaction, and slashing is a transaction, then you can prevent slashing with 33%. What's incorrect about that reasoning?
    - rglullis 4y ago
      You won't be prevent slashing with 1/3, you will be merely delaying the block production each time is is proposed. Every time your 1/3 of the nodes attempt maliciously delays of production of a valid block, you will be slashed, and then you won't have 1/3 of the required funds at stake anymore.
      - spywaregorilla 4y ago
        But... you can't be slashed unless a block gets processed that supports your slashing, correct?
        rglullis 4y ago
        Yes, but what is your point? You will be slashed no matter how hard you try to avoid it, unless you have 2/3 of the validators. The closer you are to 2/3, the faster you will be slashed. The system is self-estabilizing.
        pa7x1 4y ago
        There is an inactivity leak that gets triggered if you prevent with over 1/3 of your votes from the network reaching consensus. Inactive validators start to leak ETH from their stake until they become less than 1/3 of the total stake and cannot prevent consensus again. https://eth2book.info/altair/part2/incentives/inactivity https://eth2book.info/altair/part2/incentives/inactivity

ahahahahah 4y ago

The people you are discussing this with clearly have no idea how the system actually works and are far out of their depth as far as considering the ways malicious actors interact with it.

immibis 4y ago

If you control 51% of the network, the network is fucked. If you control 20% of the network, the other 80% is following the rules and colluding against you. (Even another 20% that are double-validating themselves are incentivized to slash you)