9 ms·

Yes it is incorrect. https://i.redd.it/5lhlmwdg27j91.png https://i.redd.it/5lhlmwdg27j91.png Ethereum will be more decentralized after proof of stake. No lon

Yes it is incorrect. https://i.redd.it/5lhlmwdg27j91.png https://i.redd.it/5lhlmwdg27j91.png Ethereum will be more decentralized after proof of stake. No longer do you need massive amounts of electricity and insider access to gpu or asic manufacturers.

luma 4y ago
Instead you just need a massive amount of eth
- Zamicol 4y ago
  Wouldn't those with ownership in a system be best trusted with the self-interest of such a system? That seems to be the best alignment of incentives.
  - luma 4y ago
    Sure, and Regular Money is best governed by billionaires. Incentives line up nicely if you're already rich.
  - AlexandrB 4y ago
    What was the point of BTC and ETH then? We already have the system you describe with fiat currency and traditional banks.
    - landemva 4y ago
      There are additional goals including in part censorship resistance and it can't be seized without the keys.
    - 735409264082 4y ago
      32 Ether or mining equipment is nothing compared to what you need to have any real influence over fiat money.
spywaregorilla 4y ago
This is not the question I am asking. You can have many people putting up their 32 ETH. Sure that's "decentralized". But what if most of the stakers collude to double spend tokens? My understanding is that there is an additional layer of validators that have the power to force them to give up their stake as a penalty. Hence "proof of stake". And that there are very few validators. And it's really just the ethereum foundation.
- zaptrem 4y ago
  You’re mistaken, validators and stakers are one and the same. A 51% attack becomes unbelievably more expensive in a proof of stake system, especially because at the end of it all of your money is burned (whereas with POW you get to keep the GPUs unless they change the algo).
  - spywaregorilla 4y ago
    stakers/validators vs. slashers
    - PretzelPirate 4y ago
      There is no defined role called a “slasher”. There are randomly-decided committees that are regularly updated as part of Ethereum PoS consensus that play different roles. Your validator could be in any one of those roles (or in a pending state) at any time.
      - spywaregorilla 4y ago
        I'm almost certain that is incorrect. This is an optional, expensive seeming process. e.g. https://docs.prylabs.network/docs/prysm-usage/slasher https://docs.prylabs.network/docs/prysm-usage/slasher
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
Anunayj 4y ago
It should however be noted that Ethereum had a ICO [1] on launch, where you could buy ethereum for a particular price. 9.9% percentage of that also was set aside for "founders". (it could however be more [2]) Today it accounts for something like 59% (72m) of total supply (~120m). Make what you will of that. 1. https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/initial-coin-offering-explained-ethereum-ico https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/initial-coin-offering-exp... 2. https://medium.com/@hasufly/ethereum-presale-dynamics-revisited-c1b70ac38448 https://medium.com/@hasufly/ethereum-presale-dynamics-revisi...
- xur17 4y ago
  > 9.9% percentage of that also was set aside for "founders" > Today it accounts for something like 59% of total supply. Make what you will of that. Can you help me understand what exactly this means? Ethereum's supply has grown since the presale, so if anything the 9.9% should have gotten smaller since then.
  - Anunayj 4y ago
    Oh, I was a bit unclear there. The 9.9% was of the total money that was raised in the ICO (60m) and ended up being ~5.9m. The total initial premine was 72m (~59% of today's supply). I think someone more knowledgeable might provide a better breakdown of those funds, except that the article(s) linked covers it a lot better than my comment.
    - gnramires 4y ago
      Since this "premine" (the 59%) was really a token sale, I don't think it's too problematic (mining is buying tokens with electricity/hardware).
  - bhaak 4y ago
    OP has provided the right links but either misunderstood the text or phrased it very confusingly. https://messari.io/asset/ethereum/profile/launch-and-initial-token-distribution https://messari.io/asset/ethereum/profile/launch-and-initial... Ethereum's crowdsale supply was 72 million ETH. Of that 60 million were sold for BTC in the crowdsale. 6 million was given to the Ethereum Foundation and 6 million to early contributors (overall 20% of what was sold was created as a pre-mine). Now Ethereum's supply is ~122 million, so the miners produced 50 millions new ETH.
Zamicol 4y ago
1. Energy production and 2. specialized chip production are both centralized, with the later being highly centralized. The move to PoS removes both of these centralized targets.
falcolas 4y ago
> No longer do you need massive amounts of electricity and insider access to gpu or asic manufacturers. No, you just need money, 32 eth is only around $50000. And there's a lot of people with sufficient money to stand up multiple validators. And validators can also initiate/vote on arbitrary slash requests (which costs them nothing, as I read it).
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  Sounds like an improvement to burning an entire country's worth of electricity...
  - falcolas 4y ago
    There's a tradeoff. We need to acknowledge the tradeoff, and be prepared for the folks who just want to watch the world burn, and have the money to do so.
- newsclues 4y ago
  As a not well off person with a gaming computer with power included in my rent, I don’t have 50,000$. Shrinking the number of people with the financial means to contribute doesn’t seem like it’s going to result in decentralization.
  - sebzim4500 4y ago
    Right but you can't afford to buy ASICs either so from your point of view the situation hasn't really changed. The chance of you ever being able to mine an ETH block with your gaming PC is negligable.
    - newsclues 4y ago
      I’ve made .2 eth in under a year.

luma 4y ago

Instead you just need a massive amount of eth

Zamicol 4y ago
Wouldn't those with ownership in a system be best trusted with the self-interest of such a system? That seems to be the best alignment of incentives.
- luma 4y ago
  Sure, and Regular Money is best governed by billionaires. Incentives line up nicely if you're already rich.
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  What was the point of BTC and ETH then? We already have the system you describe with fiat currency and traditional banks.
  - landemva 4y ago
    There are additional goals including in part censorship resistance and it can't be seized without the keys.
  - 735409264082 4y ago
    32 Ether or mining equipment is nothing compared to what you need to have any real influence over fiat money.

spywaregorilla 4y ago

This is not the question I am asking. You can have many people putting up their 32 ETH. Sure that's "decentralized". But what if most of the stakers collude to double spend tokens? My understanding is that there is an additional layer of validators that have the power to force them to give up their stake as a penalty. Hence "proof of stake". And that there are very few validators. And it's really just the ethereum foundation.

zaptrem 4y ago
You’re mistaken, validators and stakers are one and the same. A 51% attack becomes unbelievably more expensive in a proof of stake system, especially because at the end of it all of your money is burned (whereas with POW you get to keep the GPUs unless they change the algo).
- spywaregorilla 4y ago
  stakers/validators vs. slashers
  - PretzelPirate 4y ago
    There is no defined role called a “slasher”. There are randomly-decided committees that are regularly updated as part of Ethereum PoS consensus that play different roles. Your validator could be in any one of those roles (or in a pending state) at any time.
    - spywaregorilla 4y ago
      I'm almost certain that is incorrect. This is an optional, expensive seeming process. e.g. https://docs.prylabs.network/docs/prysm-usage/slasher https://docs.prylabs.network/docs/prysm-usage/slasher
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]

Anunayj 4y ago

It should however be noted that Ethereum had a ICO [1] on launch, where you could buy ethereum for a particular price. 9.9% percentage of that also was set aside for "founders". (it could however be more [2]) Today it accounts for something like 59% (72m) of total supply (~120m). Make what you will of that. 1. https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/initial-coin-offering-explained-ethereum-ico https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/initial-coin-offering-exp... 2. https://medium.com/@hasufly/ethereum-presale-dynamics-revisited-c1b70ac38448 https://medium.com/@hasufly/ethereum-presale-dynamics-revisi...

xur17 4y ago
> 9.9% percentage of that also was set aside for "founders" > Today it accounts for something like 59% of total supply. Make what you will of that. Can you help me understand what exactly this means? Ethereum's supply has grown since the presale, so if anything the 9.9% should have gotten smaller since then.
- Anunayj 4y ago
  Oh, I was a bit unclear there. The 9.9% was of the total money that was raised in the ICO (60m) and ended up being ~5.9m. The total initial premine was 72m (~59% of today's supply). I think someone more knowledgeable might provide a better breakdown of those funds, except that the article(s) linked covers it a lot better than my comment.
  - gnramires 4y ago
    Since this "premine" (the 59%) was really a token sale, I don't think it's too problematic (mining is buying tokens with electricity/hardware).
- bhaak 4y ago
  OP has provided the right links but either misunderstood the text or phrased it very confusingly. https://messari.io/asset/ethereum/profile/launch-and-initial-token-distribution https://messari.io/asset/ethereum/profile/launch-and-initial... Ethereum's crowdsale supply was 72 million ETH. Of that 60 million were sold for BTC in the crowdsale. 6 million was given to the Ethereum Foundation and 6 million to early contributors (overall 20% of what was sold was created as a pre-mine). Now Ethereum's supply is ~122 million, so the miners produced 50 millions new ETH.

Zamicol 4y ago

1. Energy production and 2. specialized chip production are both centralized, with the later being highly centralized. The move to PoS removes both of these centralized targets.

falcolas 4y ago

> No longer do you need massive amounts of electricity and insider access to gpu or asic manufacturers. No, you just need money, 32 eth is only around $50000. And there's a lot of people with sufficient money to stand up multiple validators. And validators can also initiate/vote on arbitrary slash requests (which costs them nothing, as I read it).

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
Sounds like an improvement to burning an entire country's worth of electricity...
- falcolas 4y ago
  There's a tradeoff. We need to acknowledge the tradeoff, and be prepared for the folks who just want to watch the world burn, and have the money to do so.
newsclues 4y ago
As a not well off person with a gaming computer with power included in my rent, I don’t have 50,000$. Shrinking the number of people with the financial means to contribute doesn’t seem like it’s going to result in decentralization.
- sebzim4500 4y ago
  Right but you can't afford to buy ASICs either so from your point of view the situation hasn't really changed. The chance of you ever being able to mine an ETH block with your gaming PC is negligable.
  - newsclues 4y ago
    I’ve made .2 eth in under a year.