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Ever had a video driver bug crash an application or bluescreen Windows? Yes, but I've also had audio, webcam, scanner & IDE drivers BSOD my computers over the

by Klinky 15y ago

Ever had a video driver bug crash an application or bluescreen Windows? Yes, but I've also had audio, webcam, scanner & IDE drivers BSOD my computers over the years as well. Drivers usually get better with time, but crappy drivers aren't unique to video cards. Admittedly I have not tried, but I suspect it's going to be very difficult to get it to work well from within a VM. VM software is getting better at passing 3D through to the native hardware, so it may be easier than you think. HTML parsers and renderers have indeed had plenty of vulnerabilities. They have taken years to get as secure as they are today and we may not have seen the last of the exploitable bugs in them. This is the story of software in general. As long as there will be software, there will be bugs, some of them severe. Doesn't mean you just accept it & not try to prevent them, but you also don't stifle innovation because of the fear of causing them. 3D graphics drivers, on the other hand, are designed primarily for performance in a scenario where they are run by a single-user game on the local machine, often with Admin privs already. Not really, they've supported multiple 3D accessible contexts for years & years now. Also if you're running Vista or Windows 7 you are more than likely already relying on the 3D hardware to render your 2D desktop. Web browsers are already using features of 3D hardware to further accelerate non-WebGL content. Apple knows that WebGL bugs will result in jailbroken iPhones. They also know that they messed up on the antenna design of the iPhone 4. Apple is not immune to flaws. Guess how many years their OpenGL support level is behind the PC... This doesn't really matter because WebGL is essentially a copy of OpenGL ES 2.0, which is closely based on OpenGL 2.0. The GPU can access host memory directly with no access permissions. So can your CPU, what's stopping rogue apps from doing so? Software. WebGL mainly involves writing GLSL scripts that act on buffers & arrays of data. You are limited to what data types you can upload into the video card. Perhaps there are more vectors for vulnerability, but I'd rather see WebGL take off as a transparent standard, than rely on Adobe. Plus it's performance could be much greater than sluggish Flash. I admit I'd like to see more granularity as far as control. Last thing I want is WebGL ads eating up my GPU/CPU/Battery rendering stupid ragdolls physics simulations.

marshray 15y ago
Yes, but I've also had audio, webcam, scanner & IDE drivers BSOD my computers over the years as well. Drivers usually get better with time, but crappy drivers aren't unique to video cards. Absolutely. But webcam, scanner, and disk drivers are not accepting attacker-chosen data from the internet. The audio driver may occasionally. I would be surprised if there had never been any remotely exploitable security vulnerabilities, particularly involving driver support of complex audio compression formats. VM software is getting better at passing 3D through to the native hardware, so it may be easier than you think. Yeah, this will be something to watch. This is the story of software in general. As long as there will be software, there will be bugs, some of them severe. Doesn't mean you just accept it & not try to prevent them, but you also don't stifle innovation because of the fear of causing them. The world's botnet and antivirus vendors thank you for your commitment innovation. Not really, they've supported multiple 3D accessible contexts for years & years now. Right, but to what extent have they been really tested as a security boundary? http://www.google.com/search?q=malicious+shader http://www.google.com/search?q=malicious+shader -> 30 results. It is the dawning of a new era. Also if you're running Vista or Windows 7 you are more than likely already relying on the 3D hardware to render your 2D desktop. Web browsers are already using features of 3D hardware to further accelerate non-WebGL content. No, web browsers are not accepting shader code from websites and feeding it to the GPU. >The GPU can access host memory directly with no access permissions. So can your CPU, what's stopping rogue apps from doing so? Software. A lot of software built on very carefully designed hardware memory protections that took decades to mature into the brittle systems we have now. Out of curiosity, do any GPUs have no-execute page permissions? And what stops a GPU from modifying the execute-disable bits on CPU-managed memory pages? WebGL mainly involves writing GLSL scripts that act on buffers & arrays of data. You are limited to what data types you can upload into the video card. GLSL is a Turing-complete language, so no, it is an unlimited data type. It is provably impossible to put limits on its behavior before you run it. The best you can do is run it with limited access to other memory space. But if that were implemented perfectly, video drivers would never crash. Perhaps there are more vectors for vulnerability, but I'd rather see WebGL take off as a transparent standard, than rely on Adobe. Well anything looks good if your standard of comparison is low enough. :-) I admit I'd like to see more granularity as far as control. Last thing I want is WebGL ads eating up my GPU/CPU/Battery rendering stupid ragdolls physics simulations. Noscript is your friend!
- Klinky 15y ago
  Honestly your best bet is to turn your computer off & unplug it from the Internet. Sandboxes, VMs, BIOSes are all subject to bugs which could lead to security vulnerabilities. Wrapping yourself in pillows may make you think you're safer, but it's not necessarily true & often is too much effort for most normal users. If you do not trust the software you're running then you should not be running it. http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9216542/Security_firm_exploits_Chrome_zero_day_to_hack_browser_escape_sandbox http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9216542/Security_firm... http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/security-threats/2009/06/09/virtual-machine-exploit-lets-attackers-take-over-host-39661637/ http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/security-threats/2009/06/09/virt...
  - marshray 15y ago
    If you do not trust the software you're running then you should not be running it. Yes, I often decline to run software. Even if I do "trust" the software and its author, running it may unnecessarily increase my attack surface. Honestly your best bet is to turn your computer off & unplug it from the Internet. Sandboxes, VMs, BIOSes are all subject to bugs which could lead to security vulnerabilities. Wrapping yourself in pillows may make you think you're safer, but it's not necessarily true & often is too much effort for most normal users. That's the same FUD I hear every time I tell someone "that particular feature set is beyond my risk/reward threshhold". Here's the counter-argument to that: Would you have your surgery at a hospital where the staff were playing Flash or WebGL Facebook games on the intravenous drug pump management console? We all have decisions to make about risk vs. benefit. I make mine with different considerations than yours. This is OK.
    - Klinky 15y ago
      Would you have your surgery at a hospital where the staff were playing Flash or WebGL Facebook games on the intravenous drug pump management console? This is quite a bit of FUD in it's own right. Would you use a computer who's only ability was to manage an intravenous pump? Apples vs Oranges. Even with medical devices being highly audited, not running Flash or WebGL & not being on the Internet, they still can end up with life threatening bugs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25

by Klinky 15y ago

marshray 15y ago

Yes, but I've also had audio, webcam, scanner & IDE drivers BSOD my computers over the years as well. Drivers usually get better with time, but crappy drivers aren't unique to video cards. Absolutely. But webcam, scanner, and disk drivers are not accepting attacker-chosen data from the internet. The audio driver may occasionally. I would be surprised if there had never been any remotely exploitable security vulnerabilities, particularly involving driver support of complex audio compression formats. VM software is getting better at passing 3D through to the native hardware, so it may be easier than you think. Yeah, this will be something to watch. This is the story of software in general. As long as there will be software, there will be bugs, some of them severe. Doesn't mean you just accept it & not try to prevent them, but you also don't stifle innovation because of the fear of causing them. The world's botnet and antivirus vendors thank you for your commitment innovation. Not really, they've supported multiple 3D accessible contexts for years & years now. Right, but to what extent have they been really tested as a security boundary? http://www.google.com/search?q=malicious+shader http://www.google.com/search?q=malicious+shader -> 30 results. It is the dawning of a new era. Also if you're running Vista or Windows 7 you are more than likely already relying on the 3D hardware to render your 2D desktop. Web browsers are already using features of 3D hardware to further accelerate non-WebGL content. No, web browsers are not accepting shader code from websites and feeding it to the GPU. >The GPU can access host memory directly with no access permissions. So can your CPU, what's stopping rogue apps from doing so? Software. A lot of software built on very carefully designed hardware memory protections that took decades to mature into the brittle systems we have now. Out of curiosity, do any GPUs have no-execute page permissions? And what stops a GPU from modifying the execute-disable bits on CPU-managed memory pages? WebGL mainly involves writing GLSL scripts that act on buffers & arrays of data. You are limited to what data types you can upload into the video card. GLSL is a Turing-complete language, so no, it is an unlimited data type. It is provably impossible to put limits on its behavior before you run it. The best you can do is run it with limited access to other memory space. But if that were implemented perfectly, video drivers would never crash. Perhaps there are more vectors for vulnerability, but I'd rather see WebGL take off as a transparent standard, than rely on Adobe. Well anything looks good if your standard of comparison is low enough. :-) I admit I'd like to see more granularity as far as control. Last thing I want is WebGL ads eating up my GPU/CPU/Battery rendering stupid ragdolls physics simulations. Noscript is your friend!

Klinky 15y ago
Honestly your best bet is to turn your computer off & unplug it from the Internet. Sandboxes, VMs, BIOSes are all subject to bugs which could lead to security vulnerabilities. Wrapping yourself in pillows may make you think you're safer, but it's not necessarily true & often is too much effort for most normal users. If you do not trust the software you're running then you should not be running it. http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9216542/Security_firm_exploits_Chrome_zero_day_to_hack_browser_escape_sandbox http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9216542/Security_firm... http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/security-threats/2009/06/09/virtual-machine-exploit-lets-attackers-take-over-host-39661637/ http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/security-threats/2009/06/09/virt...
- marshray 15y ago
  If you do not trust the software you're running then you should not be running it. Yes, I often decline to run software. Even if I do "trust" the software and its author, running it may unnecessarily increase my attack surface. Honestly your best bet is to turn your computer off & unplug it from the Internet. Sandboxes, VMs, BIOSes are all subject to bugs which could lead to security vulnerabilities. Wrapping yourself in pillows may make you think you're safer, but it's not necessarily true & often is too much effort for most normal users. That's the same FUD I hear every time I tell someone "that particular feature set is beyond my risk/reward threshhold". Here's the counter-argument to that: Would you have your surgery at a hospital where the staff were playing Flash or WebGL Facebook games on the intravenous drug pump management console? We all have decisions to make about risk vs. benefit. I make mine with different considerations than yours. This is OK.
  - Klinky 15y ago
    Would you have your surgery at a hospital where the staff were playing Flash or WebGL Facebook games on the intravenous drug pump management console? This is quite a bit of FUD in it's own right. Would you use a computer who's only ability was to manage an intravenous pump? Apples vs Oranges. Even with medical devices being highly audited, not running Flash or WebGL & not being on the Internet, they still can end up with life threatening bugs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25