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> if a driver has to 'squeeze past', they are a bad driver if they do not kill you, they are not. or maybe if you are scared of other road users and need a "

> if a driver has to 'squeeze past', they are a bad driver if they do not kill you, they are not. or maybe if you are scared of other road users and need a "safe space" you aren't a good road user. just maybe > if a driver is driving so close that they couldn't react to a cyclist falling, they are a bad welcome to the reality. I'm not driving too close to you, you are zig-zaging in the middle of the street and you wear noise canceling headphones and no rearview mirror and no stop signal when you brake. Thanks, but no thanks, I'm passing you, I don't trust your abilities, sorry. let's not pretend that the majority of cyclists are Tour de France participants, they are usually terrible. The good ones do not complain and they are those passing you left and right because are very confident and know what they are doing. I'm also simply trying to not be responsible of your injuries if you injure yourself. By the law I have to stop and check on you and stay there until.an ambulance or the police arrives. It usually takes hours.

davisoneee 4y ago
I ride daily through my country's largest city. I'm not scared. I don't need a 'safe space' (or your desire to start a culture war, as your provocative wording imples). I don't jump red lights. I pull over if the road is busy and fast and wave drivers to overtake if possible. I'm simply asking that, given we share the road, people should drive with some damn courtesy rather than entitlement? Most people think they are good drivers and its "the others" that are bad, regularly driving and behaving in a way that leaves little to no contingency. You can't control the environment. You can't control other road users. So if you are 'squeezing' then you are reducing your contingency, making it more dangerous for you and everyone else, and leaving yourself much more susceptible to negative events. So yes, a bad driver.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > Most people think they are good drivers and its "the others" Most cyclists think they can ride a bike and it's the cars. How is that different? The main issue is don't harm.other road users, you don't do that? Fine with me I've never been in an accident that was my fault in my career as a driver, than now spans 3 decades. The only accidents I've been were: - a bike hit me laterally because the rider was going too fast on a wet road, panicked and hit the front brake. He almost killed himself and ruined my day. - a moped took a turn too fast and hit me straight on the drivers door. When the father of the rider arrived he apologized saying his son "is a bloody idiot" (my adaptation of his Italian words, which are probably NSFW) - I stopped at a stop sign and two teens on a motorbike hit me on the back because they were running too close to me. They also attacked me for braking, I showed them the stop sign, I threatened to call the police, they calmed down and gave me some money asking me to not make it official or their parent would be furoious at them. it wasn't their first time. people are people, people make mistakes, people who think cars are dangerous for bikes usually aren't aware how shitty as cyclists they are, I'm sure they are bad drivers too. Riding is dangerous, do it at your own risk, but nobody is really trying to kill you, because you are not that important. Be careful and you'll live. Wanna be safe on a bike? Don't use it! Walk! have you noticed that in motor sports at 300km/h nobody dies while every year in professional bike competitions someone dies or injure himself badly? Because bikes are dangerous.
  - davisoneee 4y ago
    > Most cyclists think they can ride a bike and it's the cars. The consequences of riding a bike badly are much lower. 10kg bike vs 1500kg car? ~14mph cyclist vs ~30mph+ car? > I've never been in an accident that was my fault in my career as a driver, than now spans 3 decades. That doesn't say _anything_ about whether your driving caused an adverse reaction from other road users. Merely that there was nothing severe enough to legally mark you as 'at fault'. > people are people, people make mistakes, people who think cars are dangerous for bikes usually aren't aware how shitty as cyclists they are, I'm sure they are bad drivers too. Cars _are_ dangerous. Cars cut across cyclists path (hence why the UK highway code received clarification/updates this year). Cars pass without enough space and clip cyclists (which you just seem to completely ignore and think it's "safe enough" and "the bloody safe-space demanding cyclists' fault"). > Riding is dangerous, do it at your own risk, but nobody is really trying to kill you, because you are not that important. Riding, in general, isn't dangerous. For the average cyclist who is using it for commuting, and _maybe_ getting up to ~20kmh? Other than slick road surfaces from spilled oil or deep rain puddles or ice, there's not much that would cause random danger. > have you noticed that in motor sports at 300km/h nobody dies while every year in professional bike competitions someone dies or injure himself badly? Because bikes are dangerous. Road racing, where the racers are travelling in bunches of 40 cyclists at average speeds of 30mph, deliberately taking risks to try to win, is _nothing at all_ like typical road use for a commuting cyclist. You seem determined to strawman cyclists, and think that cyclists should just accept dangerous roads. You seem utterly unwilling to accept that car drivers can be a significant danger. I accept that there can be bad cyclists. I shake my head if I see one jump a traffic light. How much of your perception of cyclists is just because you _expect_ car drivers to be bad, and whatever way they behave is just 'typical' so doesnt stand out to you...but when you see a cyclist it's obviously different, so much more memorable? In the UK there were more than 150,000 road traffic accidents in 2019. In Italy, around 190,000. That suggests to me there is a lot of bad driving. My general position is that most road users (not just cars) are incredibly entitled and so we should figure out ways (such as the Netherlands' road design) that make everyone's life better, rather than just accepting things are shit and saying "suck it up and find a safe space".
davisoneee 4y ago
edit: and to follow on from your significant edits/addendums >> if a driver is driving so close that they couldn't react to a cyclist falling, they are a bad > welcome to the reality. So you are admitting that they are bad drivers, and thats just reality? Ok. I'm saying we should face reality and give ourselves space to fuck up with less consequence. Again, you seem very confident in your _own_ abilities. I don't know them. I just know that very few drivers ever consider _themselves_ to be at fault. Overconfidence. I am comfortable weaving in and out of busy traffic. I can hold 20mph+ comfortably. I ride both for commuting and recreation, and have done 40mph+ on my bike. That doesn't stop me being able to see that other drivers are bad, and even if I know what I'm doing, can hope for society to be better.
Jochim 4y ago
I find it kind of funny that your stance is basically "It's never my fault". Try to self reflect at least a little when you're attempting to make a point. > let's not pretend that the majority of cyclists are Tour de France participants, they are usually terrible. Let's not pretend that the majority of drivers are Formula 1 participants, they are usually terrible.
paulgb 4y ago
> or maybe if you are scared of other road users and need a "safe space" you aren't a good road user. It’s not cyclists who feel the need to bring a climate-controlled metal protection bubble onto the road with them. Fear of other road users is in part what is fueling the SUV boom.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > It’s not cyclists who feel the need to bring a climate-controlled metal protection bubble onto the road with them what foes that even mean? do you live in the woods and only feed yourself with carcasses? > Fear of other road users is in part what is fueling the SUV boom. maybe in America here it's micro cars that are booming because after all SUV are stupid cars for stupid rich people with small dicks
  - paulgb 4y ago
    > what foes that even mean? Your implication is that cyclists who don’t want to be close-passed are wimps who shouldn’t be on the road. You used the term “safe space”, which is usually pejorative. My point is that those cyclists are braver than the drivers who wouldn’t be on the road without a protective, climate-controlled bubble (their vehicle).
gspr 4y ago
You're the kind of driver who makes me want to kick cars off of roads in densely populated area. What a ridiculous notion that it's the soft participants in traffic that need to heed the hard ones!
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > You're the kind of driver who makes me want to kick cars off of road I'm also the kind of driver that when you trip from your bike because you are on death on wheels vehicle, stops and helps you And when you burn. ared light, brakes and when you miscalculate a turn and go wide, leaves you room, because I an actually looking around me when I drive, you aren't, because you don't care. maybe I should stop doing all that, I guess a couple of weeks with a broken leg teach a lot of lessons to people like you.
  - pastage 4y ago
    We don't hand out medals to normal people, but incarcinate the ones "who want to teach you a lesson". What you just described is what normal people do on the road. There is a lot of research on this and cyclists are not any different than other road users.
ehnto 4y ago
> welcome to the reality. You are in control of your car no?
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  you are in control of your bike no? if you die riding something that runs on two minuscule strips of rubber that requires movement to stay in equilibrium and has no protection whatsoever for the rider, that usually don't even protect themselves because "who cares", why should be other people's fault?
  - ehnto 4y ago
    As a community, we decided bikes can use the road like they used to before cars. You are responsible for driving your vehicle around them responsibly. At no poiny have you considered thst the risk as actually the car, you think the lack of a car is the risk. If everyone were on foot or bicycles there would be no issue, but that's not reality so when we take our cars into the city we have to accept that we brought the danger into the city.

davisoneee 4y ago

I ride daily through my country's largest city. I'm not scared. I don't need a 'safe space' (or your desire to start a culture war, as your provocative wording imples). I don't jump red lights. I pull over if the road is busy and fast and wave drivers to overtake if possible. I'm simply asking that, given we share the road, people should drive with some damn courtesy rather than entitlement? Most people think they are good drivers and its "the others" that are bad, regularly driving and behaving in a way that leaves little to no contingency. You can't control the environment. You can't control other road users. So if you are 'squeezing' then you are reducing your contingency, making it more dangerous for you and everyone else, and leaving yourself much more susceptible to negative events. So yes, a bad driver.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> Most people think they are good drivers and its "the others" Most cyclists think they can ride a bike and it's the cars. How is that different? The main issue is don't harm.other road users, you don't do that? Fine with me I've never been in an accident that was my fault in my career as a driver, than now spans 3 decades. The only accidents I've been were: - a bike hit me laterally because the rider was going too fast on a wet road, panicked and hit the front brake. He almost killed himself and ruined my day. - a moped took a turn too fast and hit me straight on the drivers door. When the father of the rider arrived he apologized saying his son "is a bloody idiot" (my adaptation of his Italian words, which are probably NSFW) - I stopped at a stop sign and two teens on a motorbike hit me on the back because they were running too close to me. They also attacked me for braking, I showed them the stop sign, I threatened to call the police, they calmed down and gave me some money asking me to not make it official or their parent would be furoious at them. it wasn't their first time. people are people, people make mistakes, people who think cars are dangerous for bikes usually aren't aware how shitty as cyclists they are, I'm sure they are bad drivers too. Riding is dangerous, do it at your own risk, but nobody is really trying to kill you, because you are not that important. Be careful and you'll live. Wanna be safe on a bike? Don't use it! Walk! have you noticed that in motor sports at 300km/h nobody dies while every year in professional bike competitions someone dies or injure himself badly? Because bikes are dangerous.
- davisoneee 4y ago
  > Most cyclists think they can ride a bike and it's the cars. The consequences of riding a bike badly are much lower. 10kg bike vs 1500kg car? ~14mph cyclist vs ~30mph+ car? > I've never been in an accident that was my fault in my career as a driver, than now spans 3 decades. That doesn't say _anything_ about whether your driving caused an adverse reaction from other road users. Merely that there was nothing severe enough to legally mark you as 'at fault'. > people are people, people make mistakes, people who think cars are dangerous for bikes usually aren't aware how shitty as cyclists they are, I'm sure they are bad drivers too. Cars _are_ dangerous. Cars cut across cyclists path (hence why the UK highway code received clarification/updates this year). Cars pass without enough space and clip cyclists (which you just seem to completely ignore and think it's "safe enough" and "the bloody safe-space demanding cyclists' fault"). > Riding is dangerous, do it at your own risk, but nobody is really trying to kill you, because you are not that important. Riding, in general, isn't dangerous. For the average cyclist who is using it for commuting, and _maybe_ getting up to ~20kmh? Other than slick road surfaces from spilled oil or deep rain puddles or ice, there's not much that would cause random danger. > have you noticed that in motor sports at 300km/h nobody dies while every year in professional bike competitions someone dies or injure himself badly? Because bikes are dangerous. Road racing, where the racers are travelling in bunches of 40 cyclists at average speeds of 30mph, deliberately taking risks to try to win, is _nothing at all_ like typical road use for a commuting cyclist. You seem determined to strawman cyclists, and think that cyclists should just accept dangerous roads. You seem utterly unwilling to accept that car drivers can be a significant danger. I accept that there can be bad cyclists. I shake my head if I see one jump a traffic light. How much of your perception of cyclists is just because you _expect_ car drivers to be bad, and whatever way they behave is just 'typical' so doesnt stand out to you...but when you see a cyclist it's obviously different, so much more memorable? In the UK there were more than 150,000 road traffic accidents in 2019. In Italy, around 190,000. That suggests to me there is a lot of bad driving. My general position is that most road users (not just cars) are incredibly entitled and so we should figure out ways (such as the Netherlands' road design) that make everyone's life better, rather than just accepting things are shit and saying "suck it up and find a safe space".

davisoneee 4y ago

edit: and to follow on from your significant edits/addendums >> if a driver is driving so close that they couldn't react to a cyclist falling, they are a bad > welcome to the reality. So you are admitting that they are bad drivers, and thats just reality? Ok. I'm saying we should face reality and give ourselves space to fuck up with less consequence. Again, you seem very confident in your _own_ abilities. I don't know them. I just know that very few drivers ever consider _themselves_ to be at fault. Overconfidence. I am comfortable weaving in and out of busy traffic. I can hold 20mph+ comfortably. I ride both for commuting and recreation, and have done 40mph+ on my bike. That doesn't stop me being able to see that other drivers are bad, and even if I know what I'm doing, can hope for society to be better.

Jochim 4y ago

I find it kind of funny that your stance is basically "It's never my fault". Try to self reflect at least a little when you're attempting to make a point. > let's not pretend that the majority of cyclists are Tour de France participants, they are usually terrible. Let's not pretend that the majority of drivers are Formula 1 participants, they are usually terrible.

paulgb 4y ago

> or maybe if you are scared of other road users and need a "safe space" you aren't a good road user. It’s not cyclists who feel the need to bring a climate-controlled metal protection bubble onto the road with them. Fear of other road users is in part what is fueling the SUV boom.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> It’s not cyclists who feel the need to bring a climate-controlled metal protection bubble onto the road with them what foes that even mean? do you live in the woods and only feed yourself with carcasses? > Fear of other road users is in part what is fueling the SUV boom. maybe in America here it's micro cars that are booming because after all SUV are stupid cars for stupid rich people with small dicks
- paulgb 4y ago
  > what foes that even mean? Your implication is that cyclists who don’t want to be close-passed are wimps who shouldn’t be on the road. You used the term “safe space”, which is usually pejorative. My point is that those cyclists are braver than the drivers who wouldn’t be on the road without a protective, climate-controlled bubble (their vehicle).

gspr 4y ago

You're the kind of driver who makes me want to kick cars off of roads in densely populated area. What a ridiculous notion that it's the soft participants in traffic that need to heed the hard ones!

peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> You're the kind of driver who makes me want to kick cars off of road I'm also the kind of driver that when you trip from your bike because you are on death on wheels vehicle, stops and helps you And when you burn. ared light, brakes and when you miscalculate a turn and go wide, leaves you room, because I an actually looking around me when I drive, you aren't, because you don't care. maybe I should stop doing all that, I guess a couple of weeks with a broken leg teach a lot of lessons to people like you.
- pastage 4y ago
  We don't hand out medals to normal people, but incarcinate the ones "who want to teach you a lesson". What you just described is what normal people do on the road. There is a lot of research on this and cyclists are not any different than other road users.

ehnto 4y ago

> welcome to the reality. You are in control of your car no?

peoplefromibiza 4y ago
you are in control of your bike no? if you die riding something that runs on two minuscule strips of rubber that requires movement to stay in equilibrium and has no protection whatsoever for the rider, that usually don't even protect themselves because "who cares", why should be other people's fault?
- ehnto 4y ago
  As a community, we decided bikes can use the road like they used to before cars. You are responsible for driving your vehicle around them responsibly. At no poiny have you considered thst the risk as actually the car, you think the lack of a car is the risk. If everyone were on foot or bicycles there would be no issue, but that's not reality so when we take our cars into the city we have to accept that we brought the danger into the city.