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Not OP, but this your "reality" is wrong. For example, three days ago in Warsaw, a cyclist ran over a child (ER took the child to hospital) on a busy promenade

Not OP, but this your "reality" is wrong. For example, three days ago in Warsaw, a cyclist ran over a child (ER took the child to hospital) on a busy promenade on the bank of the river. The cycleway is temporarily moved there because of the roadwork and the space is designated as shared between cycle and foot traffic. For several days pedestarians complained that cyclists drive like crazy and it's "when" not "if" some cyclist will hit someone. That unfortunately proved to be accurate. https://tvn24.pl/tvnwarszawa/ulice/warszawa-rowerzysta-potracil-dziecko-na-bulwarach-wislanych-6078388 https://tvn24.pl/tvnwarszawa/ulice/warszawa-rowerzysta-potra... [PL]

ginko 4y ago
Meanwhile there's over 2000 deadly car accidents a year in Poland, 20% of which are pedestrians[1], meaning there's more than one pedestrian killed by a car every day. [1] https://notesfrompoland.com/2021/11/23/road-deaths-in-poland-among-eus-highest-continue-to-fall/ https://notesfrompoland.com/2021/11/23/road-deaths-in-poland...
- throw_a_grenade 4y ago
  I would like to see those statistics normalised by the kilometres travelled. Unless they are, I'd argue those are misleading.
- vetinari 4y ago
  How many of these pedestrian were hit on sidewalk? How many on pedestrian crossing? And how many on roads, outside of crossing? I would guess that the stats would be radically different, if we took only pedestrians on sidewalks, as was the case above.
  - fluoridation 4y ago
    Yes, collisions between vehicles and pedestrians happen where the two interact, and the places where they do can be different for different classes of vehicles. What's your point?
    - vetinari 4y ago
      See above: > a cyclist ran over a child (ER took the child to hospital) on a busy promenade on the bank of the river. Promenades happen to be dedicated to pedestrians. So pedestrian was hit in a place, where he was supposed to be safe. And then... > Meanwhile there's over 2000 deadly car accidents a year in Poland, 20% of which are pedestrians[1], meaning there's more than one pedestrian killed by a car every day. These accidents probably didn't happen on promenades, pavements, sidewalks, footpaths or other places dedicated to pedestrians. So back to my point: comparing apples with apples. This comparison wasn't it.
WesolyKubeczek 4y ago
There's a rule that says that if you have (and have a right to at all) ride or drive anything on wheels in an area designated primarily for pedestrian use, you have to move at pedestrian speed. It doesn't matter if you are on a bicycle or an electric scooter, or on a garbage truck, 5 km/h it is. And yet people seem to promptly forget about it as soon as they get onto their killing machines. Must be something in the wheels or saddles causing them a selective amnesia. Electric scooters on crosswalks are surely a plague. Teens on them tend to ride out of the bushes at their maximum speed and cross roads without ever slowing down, making it quite hard for drivers to anticipate. Yes, you have right of way, dolt, but so has a car that just turned right, after making sure it's clear to go. There is no way to tell that a crazy kid is going to jump out in the next 300ms.
jonahrd 4y ago
Imagine if during road work they created a "temporarily shared space" between car and foot traffic. This is still a systemic issue due to poor urban design/planning. The kid was injured because the city didn't properly separate two different modes of transit. Even if it was "temporary" We could live in a world where treat bike lanes with the respect we treat car lanes and give them proper detours and this wouldn't be an issue.

ginko 4y ago

Meanwhile there's over 2000 deadly car accidents a year in Poland, 20% of which are pedestrians[1], meaning there's more than one pedestrian killed by a car every day. [1] https://notesfrompoland.com/2021/11/23/road-deaths-in-poland-among-eus-highest-continue-to-fall/ https://notesfrompoland.com/2021/11/23/road-deaths-in-poland...

throw_a_grenade 4y ago
I would like to see those statistics normalised by the kilometres travelled. Unless they are, I'd argue those are misleading.
vetinari 4y ago
How many of these pedestrian were hit on sidewalk? How many on pedestrian crossing? And how many on roads, outside of crossing? I would guess that the stats would be radically different, if we took only pedestrians on sidewalks, as was the case above.
- fluoridation 4y ago
  Yes, collisions between vehicles and pedestrians happen where the two interact, and the places where they do can be different for different classes of vehicles. What's your point?
  - vetinari 4y ago
    See above: > a cyclist ran over a child (ER took the child to hospital) on a busy promenade on the bank of the river. Promenades happen to be dedicated to pedestrians. So pedestrian was hit in a place, where he was supposed to be safe. And then... > Meanwhile there's over 2000 deadly car accidents a year in Poland, 20% of which are pedestrians[1], meaning there's more than one pedestrian killed by a car every day. These accidents probably didn't happen on promenades, pavements, sidewalks, footpaths or other places dedicated to pedestrians. So back to my point: comparing apples with apples. This comparison wasn't it.

WesolyKubeczek 4y ago

There's a rule that says that if you have (and have a right to at all) ride or drive anything on wheels in an area designated primarily for pedestrian use, you have to move at pedestrian speed. It doesn't matter if you are on a bicycle or an electric scooter, or on a garbage truck, 5 km/h it is. And yet people seem to promptly forget about it as soon as they get onto their killing machines. Must be something in the wheels or saddles causing them a selective amnesia. Electric scooters on crosswalks are surely a plague. Teens on them tend to ride out of the bushes at their maximum speed and cross roads without ever slowing down, making it quite hard for drivers to anticipate. Yes, you have right of way, dolt, but so has a car that just turned right, after making sure it's clear to go. There is no way to tell that a crazy kid is going to jump out in the next 300ms.

jonahrd 4y ago

Imagine if during road work they created a "temporarily shared space" between car and foot traffic. This is still a systemic issue due to poor urban design/planning. The kid was injured because the city didn't properly separate two different modes of transit. Even if it was "temporary" We could live in a world where treat bike lanes with the respect we treat car lanes and give them proper detours and this wouldn't be an issue.