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Hate to say it, but when I see how bikes are "integrated" into for example American traffic, I don't blame the drivers at all. WTF is a bike doing in the middle

Hate to say it, but when I see how bikes are "integrated" into for example American traffic, I don't blame the drivers at all. WTF is a bike doing in the middle of the road? If there's no bike lanes, then the bikes go all the way to the right, there are almost no exceptions. I've watches a few videos of people biking, on bike lanes, in New York, and those lanes are placed by a mad man. Sometimes they are even on the wrong side of the road. Go to the Netherlands, go to Denmark, Copenhagen especially and see how to mix traffic types. It's not perfect, but it's light years ahead of what some other countries are attempting.

eptcyka 4y ago
How am I supposed to make a left turn at an intersection? Other than that, yes, being on the far right on the road is where I'd feel safest.
- phicoh 4y ago
  On a busy road the only safe option is to make two crossings: stay on the right and cross and then cross again. It is very annoying. Depending on the situation, you can indeed move to a lane that turns left. But it requires cooperation from drivers. So in places where drivers are either hostile to bikes or likely to overlook bikes, it is not a safe way to turn.
- 411111111111111 4y ago
  Worst case you'll have to wait one traffic light rotation. One of the directions is generally green when you get there, then you'll have to wait for the switch and you can continue. But that heavily depends on how the traffic is routed. Not Just Bikes is very opinionated, but gives some pretty nice examples of well executed crossings in the Netherlands https://youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes https://youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes
- mrweasel 4y ago
  You don't. Sorry, bikes DO NOT make left turns in intersections. You go straight across, then cross from there. I've biked to school and work for 25 years, and in intersections, I never make a left turn. It takes 2 minutes extra at the most, small price to pay for not being under a truck. Smaller roads, sure, if there's no traffic, you just look over your left shoulder and make the turn if it's all clear.
  - schoen 4y ago
    I took a bike safety class that was supposedly taught by professionals and supposedly based on local vehicle legislation (in California) and they taught us to make vehicular left turns, by positioning ourselves in the rightmost traffic lane which is allowed to turn left, and indicating our intentions to make a left turn with our hands. I've subsequently done this several hundred times in various kinds of traffic. Did they make a mistake? Is this not consistent with what motorists are being taught to expect? Are motorists commonly not being taught what to expect, and getting confused about this?
    - rocqua 4y ago
      I don't think California drivers see enough cyclists do the same thing to have any kind of consistent expectation of what cyclists will do, or what they should do.
    - mrweasel 4y ago
      > Did they make a mistake? For California, I don't know. For western European: Oh my god YES! By all mean signal which way you're going to turn, but in intersection, especially those with multiple lanes, you never make a left turn. Drivers will not expect you in the middle of the intersection.
      - schoen 4y ago
        I'm genuinely grateful to learn that, and I'll try to avoid making vehicular left turns in intersections in Europe in the future!
        robryk 4y ago
        The GP is plainly wrong. ~Everyone in Switzerland does normal vehicular left turns, and the bicycle exam for schoolchildren includes making vehicular left turns correctly (i.e. signaling, waiting for cars that are in process of overtaking you, moving to the middle of the road, possibly stopping, turning when the way's free of vehicles that have right of way). E: Source: https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/pd/de/index/stadtpolizei_zuerich/praevention/schulinstruktion/velopruefung.html#welche_regeln_geltenbeimabbiegenundeinspuren https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/pd/de/index/stadtpolizei_zueric...
- mrpopo 4y ago
  > being on the far right on the road is where I'd feel safest. No. When there are no bike lanes, the safest place to be is at least one bicycle width away from the far right of the road. Some drivers will overtake you in tight situations no matter what. If you stand in the far right, you have no leeway and will get stuck between death and hitting the curbside. Take a safety buffer to retreat to when the occasional mad driver comes for your life.
- nomercy400 4y ago
  With bike lanes, you go straight until you reach the bike line of the crossing road, and then you wait for the (bike) lights on that road to turn green. You really need bike lanes.
- rocqua 4y ago
  The way this works in the Netherlands is that there is a traffic light just for cyclists. Usually you just line up on the right of the road, and wait for the cyclists light (Usually all directions) turns green.
- wodenokoto 4y ago
  You are not supposed to take a left turn at an intersection on a bicycle! That’s insane. Do you expect pedestrians to do the same? You go straight and stop at the end of the intersection. Wait for lights to change and cross again. I would honk if someone took a left turn in front of my car on their bicycle in Copenhagen.
  - avdlinde 4y ago
    I hope this is a joke and not serious. Bicycles are supposed to be on the road, pedestrians are not.
    - mrweasel 4y ago
      > Bicycles are supposed to be on the road The point is, that they aren't suppose to be in the middle of road.
      - eptcyka 4y ago
        Why?
        mrweasel 4y ago
        Because that's where the cars go? You see, there is a system. Starting from the right: pedestrians, bikes and lastly cars. We never deviate from that system, that way everyone always know where everything is. Sometimes there's a bike lane, but that still goes between the pedestrians and the cars. Also, if everything else fail, and this is what kids in Denmark is taught. If you're ever in doubt if the drivers have seen you, assume they haven't and stay away from the cars. You're on a bike, it's a great means of transportation and it's really safe (at least here), but if you're hit by a car, it's going to hurt you more than the car, so stay away from them. I think it's weird that people in countries that have the most cyclist are also the people who least of all believe that bikes have some weird right of way or than bikes should just be in the middle of heavy traffic.
        4y ago
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schoen 4y ago
> WTF is a bike doing in the middle of the road? If there's no bike lanes, then the bikes go all the way to the right, there are almost no exceptions. Mainly door zones of parked cars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dooring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dooring That's the main reason I was taught to take a full lane with my bike, and the main reason I do. (Apart from things I perceive as safety issues -- mainly dooring! -- I always try to make sure motorists can pass me when they want to.)
- mrweasel 4y ago
  Look at the picture in the Wikipedia article, like NYC bikes lanes, that lane has been placed by an idiot. It's on the wrong side of the car. Still, in places with no bike lanes, I sort of see your point, but who in their right mind opens a door straight into traffic. If it's a bike it's going to unpleasant for the rider, if it's a car, your car door comes off. I think it's less of a problem here in Denmark, partly do to placement of the bike lanes, but also because you don't park your car on the side of major roads and because drivers a more expecting of bikes perhaps. I mean dooring happens, but very rarely.
  - schoen 4y ago
    I'd say you're lucky to have better infrastructure that contributes to better safety. The bike lane placement in that Wikipedia example is dangerous because of the door zone, but it's not atypical for the United States. > who in their right mind opens a door straight into traffic. If it's a bike it's going to unpleasant for the rider, if it's a car, your car door comes off [...] I mean dooring happens, but very rarely. Here in the U.S., I believe it's the most common cause of cyclist injuries in some cities (!). Opening doors into traffic without looking is not that unusual, and there's a lot of discussion about how to change that habit. Edit: the sibling comment points out that the habit of looking before opening doors may be different for drivers versus passengers. Anecdotally, I think some of the worst offenders are taxi and rideshare passengers (in the back seat).
  - rob74 4y ago
    > that lane has been placed by an idiot. It's on the wrong side of the car. No, it's on the right (i.e. correct) side of the car - drivers are trained to look into the side mirror before opening the door, passengers not (and even if they were, they can't use the mirror on their side).
valenterry 4y ago
That's often a way to protect themselves, because car drivers don't know how to safely overtake a bike. And imho bikes should be allowed to drive right in the middle so that a car can't possibly overtake. It could be tractor or another slow vehicle and people would find it annoying but deal with it. I do the same when I cycle. And then, when there is an opportunity or I see that I'm starting to block multiple cars and the road is continuing for too long, I'll stop to allow them to take over. In the same way, when there is someone walking on the dedicated bicycle lane that is next to the pedestrian walk, I'm not annoyed but slow down and carefully overtake them if possible or just cycle behind slowly until there is a safe opportunity.
walrus 4y ago
> WTF is a bike doing in the middle of the road? I used to ride as far to the right as possible on roads without bike lanes, but then I got hit by a driver trying to squeeze past me without changing lanes.
bwindels 4y ago
If there is no bike lane, the only safe thing to do as a cyclist is to take the full lane, because there is not enough space for cars to safely overtake you. That won't stop some drivers from doing it anyway, so better block them and be safe.

eptcyka 4y ago

How am I supposed to make a left turn at an intersection? Other than that, yes, being on the far right on the road is where I'd feel safest.

phicoh 4y ago
On a busy road the only safe option is to make two crossings: stay on the right and cross and then cross again. It is very annoying. Depending on the situation, you can indeed move to a lane that turns left. But it requires cooperation from drivers. So in places where drivers are either hostile to bikes or likely to overlook bikes, it is not a safe way to turn.
411111111111111 4y ago
Worst case you'll have to wait one traffic light rotation. One of the directions is generally green when you get there, then you'll have to wait for the switch and you can continue. But that heavily depends on how the traffic is routed. Not Just Bikes is very opinionated, but gives some pretty nice examples of well executed crossings in the Netherlands https://youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes https://youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes
mrweasel 4y ago
You don't. Sorry, bikes DO NOT make left turns in intersections. You go straight across, then cross from there. I've biked to school and work for 25 years, and in intersections, I never make a left turn. It takes 2 minutes extra at the most, small price to pay for not being under a truck. Smaller roads, sure, if there's no traffic, you just look over your left shoulder and make the turn if it's all clear.
- schoen 4y ago
  I took a bike safety class that was supposedly taught by professionals and supposedly based on local vehicle legislation (in California) and they taught us to make vehicular left turns, by positioning ourselves in the rightmost traffic lane which is allowed to turn left, and indicating our intentions to make a left turn with our hands. I've subsequently done this several hundred times in various kinds of traffic. Did they make a mistake? Is this not consistent with what motorists are being taught to expect? Are motorists commonly not being taught what to expect, and getting confused about this?
  - rocqua 4y ago
    I don't think California drivers see enough cyclists do the same thing to have any kind of consistent expectation of what cyclists will do, or what they should do.
  - mrweasel 4y ago
    > Did they make a mistake? For California, I don't know. For western European: Oh my god YES! By all mean signal which way you're going to turn, but in intersection, especially those with multiple lanes, you never make a left turn. Drivers will not expect you in the middle of the intersection.
    - schoen 4y ago
      I'm genuinely grateful to learn that, and I'll try to avoid making vehicular left turns in intersections in Europe in the future!
      - robryk 4y ago
        The GP is plainly wrong. ~Everyone in Switzerland does normal vehicular left turns, and the bicycle exam for schoolchildren includes making vehicular left turns correctly (i.e. signaling, waiting for cars that are in process of overtaking you, moving to the middle of the road, possibly stopping, turning when the way's free of vehicles that have right of way). E: Source: https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/pd/de/index/stadtpolizei_zuerich/praevention/schulinstruktion/velopruefung.html#welche_regeln_geltenbeimabbiegenundeinspuren https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/pd/de/index/stadtpolizei_zueric...
mrpopo 4y ago
> being on the far right on the road is where I'd feel safest. No. When there are no bike lanes, the safest place to be is at least one bicycle width away from the far right of the road. Some drivers will overtake you in tight situations no matter what. If you stand in the far right, you have no leeway and will get stuck between death and hitting the curbside. Take a safety buffer to retreat to when the occasional mad driver comes for your life.
nomercy400 4y ago
With bike lanes, you go straight until you reach the bike line of the crossing road, and then you wait for the (bike) lights on that road to turn green. You really need bike lanes.
rocqua 4y ago
The way this works in the Netherlands is that there is a traffic light just for cyclists. Usually you just line up on the right of the road, and wait for the cyclists light (Usually all directions) turns green.
wodenokoto 4y ago
You are not supposed to take a left turn at an intersection on a bicycle! That’s insane. Do you expect pedestrians to do the same? You go straight and stop at the end of the intersection. Wait for lights to change and cross again. I would honk if someone took a left turn in front of my car on their bicycle in Copenhagen.
- avdlinde 4y ago
  I hope this is a joke and not serious. Bicycles are supposed to be on the road, pedestrians are not.
  - mrweasel 4y ago
    > Bicycles are supposed to be on the road The point is, that they aren't suppose to be in the middle of road.
    - eptcyka 4y ago
      Why?
      - mrweasel 4y ago
        Because that's where the cars go? You see, there is a system. Starting from the right: pedestrians, bikes and lastly cars. We never deviate from that system, that way everyone always know where everything is. Sometimes there's a bike lane, but that still goes between the pedestrians and the cars. Also, if everything else fail, and this is what kids in Denmark is taught. If you're ever in doubt if the drivers have seen you, assume they haven't and stay away from the cars. You're on a bike, it's a great means of transportation and it's really safe (at least here), but if you're hit by a car, it's going to hurt you more than the car, so stay away from them. I think it's weird that people in countries that have the most cyclist are also the people who least of all believe that bikes have some weird right of way or than bikes should just be in the middle of heavy traffic.
        4y ago
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schoen 4y ago

> WTF is a bike doing in the middle of the road? If there's no bike lanes, then the bikes go all the way to the right, there are almost no exceptions. Mainly door zones of parked cars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dooring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dooring That's the main reason I was taught to take a full lane with my bike, and the main reason I do. (Apart from things I perceive as safety issues -- mainly dooring! -- I always try to make sure motorists can pass me when they want to.)

mrweasel 4y ago
Look at the picture in the Wikipedia article, like NYC bikes lanes, that lane has been placed by an idiot. It's on the wrong side of the car. Still, in places with no bike lanes, I sort of see your point, but who in their right mind opens a door straight into traffic. If it's a bike it's going to unpleasant for the rider, if it's a car, your car door comes off. I think it's less of a problem here in Denmark, partly do to placement of the bike lanes, but also because you don't park your car on the side of major roads and because drivers a more expecting of bikes perhaps. I mean dooring happens, but very rarely.
- schoen 4y ago
  I'd say you're lucky to have better infrastructure that contributes to better safety. The bike lane placement in that Wikipedia example is dangerous because of the door zone, but it's not atypical for the United States. > who in their right mind opens a door straight into traffic. If it's a bike it's going to unpleasant for the rider, if it's a car, your car door comes off [...] I mean dooring happens, but very rarely. Here in the U.S., I believe it's the most common cause of cyclist injuries in some cities (!). Opening doors into traffic without looking is not that unusual, and there's a lot of discussion about how to change that habit. Edit: the sibling comment points out that the habit of looking before opening doors may be different for drivers versus passengers. Anecdotally, I think some of the worst offenders are taxi and rideshare passengers (in the back seat).
- rob74 4y ago
  > that lane has been placed by an idiot. It's on the wrong side of the car. No, it's on the right (i.e. correct) side of the car - drivers are trained to look into the side mirror before opening the door, passengers not (and even if they were, they can't use the mirror on their side).

valenterry 4y ago

That's often a way to protect themselves, because car drivers don't know how to safely overtake a bike. And imho bikes should be allowed to drive right in the middle so that a car can't possibly overtake. It could be tractor or another slow vehicle and people would find it annoying but deal with it. I do the same when I cycle. And then, when there is an opportunity or I see that I'm starting to block multiple cars and the road is continuing for too long, I'll stop to allow them to take over. In the same way, when there is someone walking on the dedicated bicycle lane that is next to the pedestrian walk, I'm not annoyed but slow down and carefully overtake them if possible or just cycle behind slowly until there is a safe opportunity.

walrus 4y ago

> WTF is a bike doing in the middle of the road? I used to ride as far to the right as possible on roads without bike lanes, but then I got hit by a driver trying to squeeze past me without changing lanes.

bwindels 4y ago

If there is no bike lane, the only safe thing to do as a cyclist is to take the full lane, because there is not enough space for cars to safely overtake you. That won't stop some drivers from doing it anyway, so better block them and be safe.