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My only actual experience with them is their refusal to remove video of my country men getting violently murdered. While I don't think they should have been for

by xupybd 4y ago

My only actual experience with them is their refusal to remove video of my country men getting violently murdered. While I don't think they should have been forced to do that it was the right thing to do. The families should have been given that respect. Anything outside of that I'll admit I'm probably wrong or at best uninformed. I have no doubt that in this day and age they're being attacked in bad faith by the media.

HereIGoAgain 4y ago
I do understand your feelings on that.. The whole thing seems to have blew up when someone from their government requested a list of everyone who downloaded or viewed the video or manifesto. This was right around the time that they were very publicly arresting people for even looking at either. The owner wasn't happy about that and told them off.. Then the media (including sites like vice) reported it as "KF refuses to release information on the CC shooting" something the site is still blamed for to this day in some places.
psyc 4y ago
I can certainly understand how that would be upsetting. I'm sure you understand that KF isn't about respecting.... anybody. At all. They are as irreverent as anything I've ever seen. But yes, they're attacked almost exclusively in bad faith by everybody. Everybody. As soon as somebody says "There's a website dedicated to making trans people commit suicide!" in this our Age of Outrage, there is a part of most people that wants to believe it immediately. Which really makes me wonder why the media doesn't stick to reporting on what they actually say and do. Why isn't that bad enough? It would still make everyone mad.
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  This is a really good example of sealioning. Saving this for later. Thank you.
  - hackeraccount 4y ago
    Arguing that people acting disingenuously is a problem with the Internet seems like going after low hanging fruit.
    - kelseyfrog 4y ago
      The alternative is actively engaging with them, but the incentive structures are all messed up. If someone has more energy, time, and rhetorical maladaptions, they can "run out the clock" on internet debate. This becomes an effective strategy when we acknowledge that most internet "debates" aren't actually trying to change the minds of those engaging in them. They are performative acts intended to convince the readers which easily outnumber the participants by orders of magnitude. In essence, master debaters craft their message to appeal to viewers whilst simultaneous serving as a foil to the other participants.
  - xupybd 4y ago
    I often find people mistake the Socratic method with sealioning. Sometimes to argue a topic you have to ask a series of questions first to find out from what axioms the person is reasoning. It's highly unproductive when people start pulling out the term sealioning instead of actually exploring the ideas they are advocating. Because of that I'm not a fan of the term.
    - kelseyfrog 4y ago
      The Sorcratic method is great for novice-expert dialogue. It's demeaning when it's over applied in discussion amongst peers. If someone wants to know another's axioms, it's easy to simply preface questions with that context. Absent that, the audience will infer what the writers intentions are. Usually when the audience guesses wrong we don't blame the audience, we instead respond back with polite critique that the author's words were unclear. Maybe I've been on the internet too much, but there's been times when it's clear the Sorcratic method was being used as a rhetorical device with great effect rather than a knowledge transference device. We can both agree that's maladaptive behavior.

by xupybd 4y ago

HereIGoAgain 4y ago

I do understand your feelings on that.. The whole thing seems to have blew up when someone from their government requested a list of everyone who downloaded or viewed the video or manifesto. This was right around the time that they were very publicly arresting people for even looking at either. The owner wasn't happy about that and told them off.. Then the media (including sites like vice) reported it as "KF refuses to release information on the CC shooting" something the site is still blamed for to this day in some places.

psyc 4y ago

I can certainly understand how that would be upsetting. I'm sure you understand that KF isn't about respecting.... anybody. At all. They are as irreverent as anything I've ever seen. But yes, they're attacked almost exclusively in bad faith by everybody. Everybody. As soon as somebody says "There's a website dedicated to making trans people commit suicide!" in this our Age of Outrage, there is a part of most people that wants to believe it immediately. Which really makes me wonder why the media doesn't stick to reporting on what they actually say and do. Why isn't that bad enough? It would still make everyone mad.

kelseyfrog 4y ago
This is a really good example of sealioning. Saving this for later. Thank you.
- hackeraccount 4y ago
  Arguing that people acting disingenuously is a problem with the Internet seems like going after low hanging fruit.
  - kelseyfrog 4y ago
    The alternative is actively engaging with them, but the incentive structures are all messed up. If someone has more energy, time, and rhetorical maladaptions, they can "run out the clock" on internet debate. This becomes an effective strategy when we acknowledge that most internet "debates" aren't actually trying to change the minds of those engaging in them. They are performative acts intended to convince the readers which easily outnumber the participants by orders of magnitude. In essence, master debaters craft their message to appeal to viewers whilst simultaneous serving as a foil to the other participants.
- xupybd 4y ago
  I often find people mistake the Socratic method with sealioning. Sometimes to argue a topic you have to ask a series of questions first to find out from what axioms the person is reasoning. It's highly unproductive when people start pulling out the term sealioning instead of actually exploring the ideas they are advocating. Because of that I'm not a fan of the term.
  - kelseyfrog 4y ago
    The Sorcratic method is great for novice-expert dialogue. It's demeaning when it's over applied in discussion amongst peers. If someone wants to know another's axioms, it's easy to simply preface questions with that context. Absent that, the audience will infer what the writers intentions are. Usually when the audience guesses wrong we don't blame the audience, we instead respond back with polite critique that the author's words were unclear. Maybe I've been on the internet too much, but there's been times when it's clear the Sorcratic method was being used as a rhetorical device with great effect rather than a knowledge transference device. We can both agree that's maladaptive behavior.