5 ms·

What laws do they break?

xupybd 4y ago
If they're organizing swatting then that should be covered under conspiracy to commit a crime https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/371 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/371 Swatting is incredibly dangerous. I fear many see it as a prank but when you get cops with guns charging into what they think is a dangerous situation then people get hurt. Then you have harassment laws https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/criminal-charges/harassment.html https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/criminal-charges/harassment.... There are specific Cyberstalking laws.
- HereIGoAgain 4y ago
  The problem is that, much like the alleged body count, they do nothing of the sort. See my post above. They don't harass or even troll. It's literally one of the core rules of the site. Look (and laugh) but don't touch! If you ever try to organize something on-site, you'll get down-voted, your post deleted and potentially even banned. Attempting to swat isn't just not allowed on the site, but most members call out actual attempts as stupid, dangerous and evil! Posting publicly available info and then pointing and laughing, is not stalking or harassment.
  - xupybd 4y ago
    I'm going on the article above. It alleges that crimes have been committed. If there is no crime that is great and they might have a reasonable claim to libel. I guess my point is that any action against them should be for specific crimes committed by law enforcement. Not de-platforming by an angry mob. The nice thing about falling back on the justice system is you need to prove your claims. So if there is no crime here then there is no action required against Kiwi Farms. But if there is then there is a valid path to justice that doesn't involve the mob getting their way without any due process.
    - HereIGoAgain 4y ago
      I get what you're saying now. Truly criminal actions should always be investigated and nobody should get favorites. It's funny how the people and media pushing these narratives here fail to mention the full logic of their arguments.. CF provides DDOS protection, they want KF to lose that protection so the DDOS attacks that are going on even now, take the site offline. That is literally the entire goal of this CF demand... To make the site susceptible to unquestionably illegal DDOS attacks which they know authorities don't and wouldn't lift a finger to stop/punish. You also have to remember where those claims are coming from.. Vice isn't exactly the most unbias or trustworthy source. Just barely above clickbait in quality and more overtly political on these types of issues.
    - psyc 4y ago
      [dead]
  - notthisagain2 4y ago
    > Harassment campaigns by Kiwi Farms users are known to have contributed to the suicides of three individuals.[9] The Kiwi Farms community considers it a goal to drive its targets to suicide, and has celebrated such deaths with a counter on the website.[11]: 55, 61 They have used social media reporting systems to mass-report posts by harassment targets in which they've expressed suicidal thoughts or intentions, with the goal of reducing the possibility their targets receive help.[11] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms#Harassment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms#Harassment It's kind of funny that you talk about an "alleged body count" when the site literally put up an actual counter of the people whose suicide they encouraged.
    - bauruine 4y ago
      Do you have source for that? The book in the Wikipedia article cites [0], [1] and [2] but i couldn't find anything related to suicide counter in them. Also I'm not exactly sure why Kiwi Farms gets _all_ the blame here. It's Facebook deleting the posts of people that need help because i guess it's against their guidelines. [0]: https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/chloe-sagal-death-1202858068/ https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/chloe-sagal-death-12028... [1]: https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=308671 https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=308671 [2]: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2016/07/kiwi-farms-the-webs-biggest-community-of-stalkers.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2016/07/kiwi-farms-the-webs-...
  - kelseyfrog 4y ago
    I mean we can look at what happened to Chloe Sagal to see what "look (and laugh) but don't touch" does to people.
    - HereIGoAgain 4y ago
      Wait, you mean the person who got evicted from their house by the roommates (thrown out of the local trans community) and then killed themselves later that day? Also didn't they literally frame it as a protest of the current mental health system? It seems very much like you've been reading fud from opportunistic people.. and from the sound of it some of the same people who threw Chloe under the bus the day it happened.
      - kelseyfrog 4y ago
        You must be confusing her with a different Chloe Sagal. I'm referring to the one who was stalked and harassed by Kiwi Farms users and when tried reaching out for help was consistently reported and locked down. The one who was the target of online bullying and the one who was mentioned in this Kiwi Farms quote “I do hope they blame us for literally murdering another t***n. Dibs on credit.”
        HereIGoAgain 4y ago
        kelseyfrog 4y ago
        How convenient.
- psyc 4y ago
  You probably aren't meaning to, but you're spreading outright lies that always originate with people who are mad at the Kiwis. This is just plain made up. Maybe you're thinking of 4chan circa 2004. Maybe you think all internet trolls are one big community. I don't know. The problem is that just about nobody outside of KF has any reason at all to know anything about them, besides what they hear second hand from people who are upset with them. Saying one word on the forum even hinting at the encouragement of what they term "GayOps" - or interacting directly with / harassing the subjects, is perhaps the only bannable offense there is. And that's not a term of endearment, and this is not a wink, wink, nudge thing. I know your mind wants to reject this, but it is the case. There's no secret chatroom. If there is it's a completely separate community because they wouldn't be able to talk to the actual community about any of it. The forum OGs will attempt to mock you into submission before things get to that point. The vast majority of the users have no interest in messing with them and it is against the culture. A few people will try to talk to the subjects on Twitter and in 7 years I've never once seen it go past that. Not once. 99% of their activity is screencapping public tweets, making mean-spirited quips about them, and... and nothing. That's it. That's what they do. People aren't mad about what KF does. They think they are, because people aren't capable of thinking clearly about this, particularly when they're the targets. People are really mad about what they say. They just can't believe it's legal to say the horrible things they say. But it is. And they're mad about where and how the Kiwis direct attention. And the more postmodern targets have lately taken to yapping about what they've termed "stochastic terrorism". That's the idea that the speech on the forum raises the statistical likelihood that somebody might decide to commit a crime OR that a target might commit suicide. Stochastic terrorism. This is how they're able to say with a straight face that the Kiwis are terrorists, committing terrorism, in addition to being nazis, fascists, alt-right, inciting violence and all the standard by the book things that you people have taken to calling every single person who doesn't exercise their right to talk about shit in the way you think they should. Almost everything I've ever read about Kiwi Farms was blatant and obvious lies with an obvious agenda.
  - xupybd 4y ago
    My only actual experience with them is their refusal to remove video of my country men getting violently murdered. While I don't think they should have been forced to do that it was the right thing to do. The families should have been given that respect. Anything outside of that I'll admit I'm probably wrong or at best uninformed. I have no doubt that in this day and age they're being attacked in bad faith by the media.

If they're organizing swatting then that should be covered under conspiracy to commit a crime https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/371 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/371 Swatting is incredibly dangerous. I fear many see it as a prank but when you get cops with guns charging into what they think is a dangerous situation then people get hurt. Then you have harassment laws https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/criminal-charges/harassment.html https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/criminal-charges/harassment.... There are specific Cyberstalking laws.

HereIGoAgain 4y ago
The problem is that, much like the alleged body count, they do nothing of the sort. See my post above. They don't harass or even troll. It's literally one of the core rules of the site. Look (and laugh) but don't touch! If you ever try to organize something on-site, you'll get down-voted, your post deleted and potentially even banned. Attempting to swat isn't just not allowed on the site, but most members call out actual attempts as stupid, dangerous and evil! Posting publicly available info and then pointing and laughing, is not stalking or harassment.
- xupybd 4y ago
  I'm going on the article above. It alleges that crimes have been committed. If there is no crime that is great and they might have a reasonable claim to libel. I guess my point is that any action against them should be for specific crimes committed by law enforcement. Not de-platforming by an angry mob. The nice thing about falling back on the justice system is you need to prove your claims. So if there is no crime here then there is no action required against Kiwi Farms. But if there is then there is a valid path to justice that doesn't involve the mob getting their way without any due process.
  - HereIGoAgain 4y ago
    I get what you're saying now. Truly criminal actions should always be investigated and nobody should get favorites. It's funny how the people and media pushing these narratives here fail to mention the full logic of their arguments.. CF provides DDOS protection, they want KF to lose that protection so the DDOS attacks that are going on even now, take the site offline. That is literally the entire goal of this CF demand... To make the site susceptible to unquestionably illegal DDOS attacks which they know authorities don't and wouldn't lift a finger to stop/punish. You also have to remember where those claims are coming from.. Vice isn't exactly the most unbias or trustworthy source. Just barely above clickbait in quality and more overtly political on these types of issues.
  - psyc 4y ago
    [dead]
- notthisagain2 4y ago
  > Harassment campaigns by Kiwi Farms users are known to have contributed to the suicides of three individuals.[9] The Kiwi Farms community considers it a goal to drive its targets to suicide, and has celebrated such deaths with a counter on the website.[11]: 55, 61 They have used social media reporting systems to mass-report posts by harassment targets in which they've expressed suicidal thoughts or intentions, with the goal of reducing the possibility their targets receive help.[11] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms#Harassment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms#Harassment It's kind of funny that you talk about an "alleged body count" when the site literally put up an actual counter of the people whose suicide they encouraged.
  - bauruine 4y ago
    Do you have source for that? The book in the Wikipedia article cites [0], [1] and [2] but i couldn't find anything related to suicide counter in them. Also I'm not exactly sure why Kiwi Farms gets _all_ the blame here. It's Facebook deleting the posts of people that need help because i guess it's against their guidelines. [0]: https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/chloe-sagal-death-1202858068/ https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/chloe-sagal-death-12028... [1]: https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=308671 https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=308671 [2]: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2016/07/kiwi-farms-the-webs-biggest-community-of-stalkers.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2016/07/kiwi-farms-the-webs-...
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  I mean we can look at what happened to Chloe Sagal to see what "look (and laugh) but don't touch" does to people.
  - HereIGoAgain 4y ago
    Wait, you mean the person who got evicted from their house by the roommates (thrown out of the local trans community) and then killed themselves later that day? Also didn't they literally frame it as a protest of the current mental health system? It seems very much like you've been reading fud from opportunistic people.. and from the sound of it some of the same people who threw Chloe under the bus the day it happened.
    - kelseyfrog 4y ago
      You must be confusing her with a different Chloe Sagal. I'm referring to the one who was stalked and harassed by Kiwi Farms users and when tried reaching out for help was consistently reported and locked down. The one who was the target of online bullying and the one who was mentioned in this Kiwi Farms quote “I do hope they blame us for literally murdering another t***n. Dibs on credit.”
      - HereIGoAgain 4y ago
        kelseyfrog 4y ago
        How convenient.
psyc 4y ago
You probably aren't meaning to, but you're spreading outright lies that always originate with people who are mad at the Kiwis. This is just plain made up. Maybe you're thinking of 4chan circa 2004. Maybe you think all internet trolls are one big community. I don't know. The problem is that just about nobody outside of KF has any reason at all to know anything about them, besides what they hear second hand from people who are upset with them. Saying one word on the forum even hinting at the encouragement of what they term "GayOps" - or interacting directly with / harassing the subjects, is perhaps the only bannable offense there is. And that's not a term of endearment, and this is not a wink, wink, nudge thing. I know your mind wants to reject this, but it is the case. There's no secret chatroom. If there is it's a completely separate community because they wouldn't be able to talk to the actual community about any of it. The forum OGs will attempt to mock you into submission before things get to that point. The vast majority of the users have no interest in messing with them and it is against the culture. A few people will try to talk to the subjects on Twitter and in 7 years I've never once seen it go past that. Not once. 99% of their activity is screencapping public tweets, making mean-spirited quips about them, and... and nothing. That's it. That's what they do. People aren't mad about what KF does. They think they are, because people aren't capable of thinking clearly about this, particularly when they're the targets. People are really mad about what they say. They just can't believe it's legal to say the horrible things they say. But it is. And they're mad about where and how the Kiwis direct attention. And the more postmodern targets have lately taken to yapping about what they've termed "stochastic terrorism". That's the idea that the speech on the forum raises the statistical likelihood that somebody might decide to commit a crime OR that a target might commit suicide. Stochastic terrorism. This is how they're able to say with a straight face that the Kiwis are terrorists, committing terrorism, in addition to being nazis, fascists, alt-right, inciting violence and all the standard by the book things that you people have taken to calling every single person who doesn't exercise their right to talk about shit in the way you think they should. Almost everything I've ever read about Kiwi Farms was blatant and obvious lies with an obvious agenda.
- xupybd 4y ago
  My only actual experience with them is their refusal to remove video of my country men getting violently murdered. While I don't think they should have been forced to do that it was the right thing to do. The families should have been given that respect. Anything outside of that I'll admit I'm probably wrong or at best uninformed. I have no doubt that in this day and age they're being attacked in bad faith by the media.