3 ms·

Porn "addiction" and all that hand wringing is just FUD from the moral panic types and the skeezy media "doctors" that prey on them. In fact non-substance "addi

Porn "addiction" and all that hand wringing is just FUD from the moral panic types and the skeezy media "doctors" that prey on them. In fact non-substance "addictions" aren't recognized at all. "Gambling disorder" is presently the only condition in the subsection of "Non-substance-related disorders" in DSM 5. Addiction mediated by chemicals that directly increase perceptions of incentive salience through mesolimbic dopaminergic activation are real addictions. Perceptions of sensory stimuli come in through the normal paths do not directly hijack any part of the brain like addictive chemicals do. Downstream of the stimuli there may be reward learning but it's through normal channels, not directly turning up incentive salience. You actually have to like/enjoy something first before reward learning happens.

MisterMower 4y ago
They’re working on changing that, too.
wyager 4y ago
Is there a DSM-5 condition for outsourcing all your rational facilities to the DSM-5?
- superkuh 4y ago
  I cited the current status quo and then I explained the scientific reasoning behind it. You are implying the DSM 5 created my beliefs, but I only cited it here because if I just stated the science alone I'd be critized for that instead. I've spent decades reading journal articles on this topic and there's every reason to believe that substance mediated addition is a very different thing than non-substance mediated "addiction". The crackpots and abusive groups out there holding "porn addiction" and related treatment camps and services are just about as legit as the "pray the gay away" camps. They're completely unethical and unsupported but moral panic keeps them flush with cash.
  - flir 4y ago
    Is it possible your issue is with the overloading of the word "addiction"? If we called it a compulsion instead would you be ok with that? 'cos I'm just thinking that Skinner boxes look pretty damn addictive from the outside, regardless of the precise mecahnism of action.
    - girvo 4y ago
      My issue is with the use of the term “addiction”, yes. It’s multiple orders of magnitude smaller in effect size on dopamine receptor down regulation compared to Opioid Use Disorder, for example, and I think conflating them can be a bit harmful. That said, this battle was lost long long ago, so it’s somewhat of a moot point.
      - collegeburner 4y ago
        addiction refers to a pattern of behavior not just its scale. like, you can be addicted to eating even though it has a much smaller effect than smack and people still are and end up 600 pounds. i also think addiction around porn is not just addiction it's a fucky form of erotic plasticity that gets people hooked on weird stuff that messes with their ability to have normal, healthy relationships. like, i watch a shitton of peers have problems with this and then y'all tell me "oh at least it's not opioids". bruh. yes it's not opioids it's a different kind of problem. then there's the people who are out here like "oh you're just a puritan" refusing to admit that there's literally anything potentially dangerous about porn at all.
        girvo 4y ago
        > oh at least it's not opioids That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that we shouldn't conflate the two via language, because as you also admit, they're not even in the same planet with regards to their danger and effect on the human organism. They don't operate the same way at all. I said nothing and passed no judgement on the dangers or lack thereof of porn.
    - superkuh 4y ago
      Yes, that's the primary issue I'm addressing. But even beyond that there have been many real studies (not anecdotes) showing that masterbation and porn use have no effect on sexual partners. In fact most of the one's I've read show the reverse correlation if anything: people who masterbate more are better able to enjoy sex with partners. ref: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41443-022-00596-y https://www.nature.com/articles/s41443-022-00596-y Additionally, scientists have studied if it is possible to become "addicted" to sex and other normal sexual stimuli. It doesn't happen. At least not like with, say, methamphetamine. Imagine how many people would be "addicted" to sex if it were. ref: https://akjournals.com/view/journals/2006/11/2/article-p222.xml https://akjournals.com/view/journals/2006/11/2/article-p222.... The real dangers here are cults like "no fap" (ie, NCOSE, FightTheNewDrug, Reboot) and other unhealthy moral panic groups promising to kill each other and repeated threatening to kill adult actors, media producers, and scientific researchers. People with the strongest opposition to scientific consensus have the lowest levels of objective knowledge--yet they also have the most confidence. If someone claims to "treat" sex addiction or porn addiction, they are part of the problem providing "non-evidence-based treatment". ref: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272735820301136 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027273582... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-020-01884-8 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-020-01884-8 "Claiming Public Health Crisis to Regulate Sexual Outlets: A Critique of the State of Utah’s Declaration on Pornography" https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2019.305498 https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2019... "Should Public Health Professionals Consider Pornography a Public Health Crisis?"
  - wyager 4y ago
    > I cited the current status quo You certainly did. > and then I explained the scientific reasoning behind it. That's charitable. > there's every reason to believe that substance mediated addition is a very different thing than non-substance mediated "addiction". And? They are both addictions.
  - omniglottal 4y ago
    The point you should be catching, I believe, is that such things exist in reality independent of their existing in the DSM-5
DiggyJohnson 4y ago
Carry on doing your thing then.
collegeburner 4y ago
- Ancapistani 4y ago
  > literally listen to all the girls who end up crying bc their boyfriends can't get it up and they think they ugly, but really it's porn addiction. … or it’s the well-known trend of decreasing testosterone levels among males in Western countries.
  - collegeburner 4y ago
    i agree that's part of it and massive problem, and its kinda scary most 20 year olds would have to go on aggressive TRT to get close to people 80 years ago. however getting clean from porn for even a month seems to really help most of them. sometimes longer but def makes a difference and usually with time it gets fixed. i will say there's a theory that frequent masturbation lowers testosterone, telling your brain "yea i got a harem of chicks im good" so it doesn't need the aggression or drive. could just be broscience but an interesting area to explore. but yeah both problems deserve attention. tbh i wouldn't be surprised if politicians, media, etc. ignore it on purpose because it's correlated with lower violence or whatever.
    - isaacfrond 4y ago
      Masturbation does not seem to have any long-lasting effects on testosterone levels. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325418 https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325418.
      - collegeburner 4y ago
        i agree that those studies show normal masturbation doesn't. i'm saying maybe unhealthy addictive behavior (like 3 times a day) does and that hasn't been studied. i was also totally clear it might be broscience but that it's an interesting study area that bears considering.
- 4y ago
kurupt213 4y ago
Thats a long description of habit forming

MisterMower 4y ago

They’re working on changing that, too.

wyager 4y ago

Is there a DSM-5 condition for outsourcing all your rational facilities to the DSM-5?

superkuh 4y ago
I cited the current status quo and then I explained the scientific reasoning behind it. You are implying the DSM 5 created my beliefs, but I only cited it here because if I just stated the science alone I'd be critized for that instead. I've spent decades reading journal articles on this topic and there's every reason to believe that substance mediated addition is a very different thing than non-substance mediated "addiction". The crackpots and abusive groups out there holding "porn addiction" and related treatment camps and services are just about as legit as the "pray the gay away" camps. They're completely unethical and unsupported but moral panic keeps them flush with cash.
- flir 4y ago
  Is it possible your issue is with the overloading of the word "addiction"? If we called it a compulsion instead would you be ok with that? 'cos I'm just thinking that Skinner boxes look pretty damn addictive from the outside, regardless of the precise mecahnism of action.
  - girvo 4y ago
    My issue is with the use of the term “addiction”, yes. It’s multiple orders of magnitude smaller in effect size on dopamine receptor down regulation compared to Opioid Use Disorder, for example, and I think conflating them can be a bit harmful. That said, this battle was lost long long ago, so it’s somewhat of a moot point.
    - collegeburner 4y ago
      addiction refers to a pattern of behavior not just its scale. like, you can be addicted to eating even though it has a much smaller effect than smack and people still are and end up 600 pounds. i also think addiction around porn is not just addiction it's a fucky form of erotic plasticity that gets people hooked on weird stuff that messes with their ability to have normal, healthy relationships. like, i watch a shitton of peers have problems with this and then y'all tell me "oh at least it's not opioids". bruh. yes it's not opioids it's a different kind of problem. then there's the people who are out here like "oh you're just a puritan" refusing to admit that there's literally anything potentially dangerous about porn at all.
      - girvo 4y ago
        > oh at least it's not opioids That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that we shouldn't conflate the two via language, because as you also admit, they're not even in the same planet with regards to their danger and effect on the human organism. They don't operate the same way at all. I said nothing and passed no judgement on the dangers or lack thereof of porn.
  - superkuh 4y ago
    Yes, that's the primary issue I'm addressing. But even beyond that there have been many real studies (not anecdotes) showing that masterbation and porn use have no effect on sexual partners. In fact most of the one's I've read show the reverse correlation if anything: people who masterbate more are better able to enjoy sex with partners. ref: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41443-022-00596-y https://www.nature.com/articles/s41443-022-00596-y Additionally, scientists have studied if it is possible to become "addicted" to sex and other normal sexual stimuli. It doesn't happen. At least not like with, say, methamphetamine. Imagine how many people would be "addicted" to sex if it were. ref: https://akjournals.com/view/journals/2006/11/2/article-p222.xml https://akjournals.com/view/journals/2006/11/2/article-p222.... The real dangers here are cults like "no fap" (ie, NCOSE, FightTheNewDrug, Reboot) and other unhealthy moral panic groups promising to kill each other and repeated threatening to kill adult actors, media producers, and scientific researchers. People with the strongest opposition to scientific consensus have the lowest levels of objective knowledge--yet they also have the most confidence. If someone claims to "treat" sex addiction or porn addiction, they are part of the problem providing "non-evidence-based treatment". ref: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272735820301136 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027273582... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-020-01884-8 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-020-01884-8 "Claiming Public Health Crisis to Regulate Sexual Outlets: A Critique of the State of Utah’s Declaration on Pornography" https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2019.305498 https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2019... "Should Public Health Professionals Consider Pornography a Public Health Crisis?"
- wyager 4y ago
  > I cited the current status quo You certainly did. > and then I explained the scientific reasoning behind it. That's charitable. > there's every reason to believe that substance mediated addition is a very different thing than non-substance mediated "addiction". And? They are both addictions.
- omniglottal 4y ago
  The point you should be catching, I believe, is that such things exist in reality independent of their existing in the DSM-5

DiggyJohnson 4y ago

Carry on doing your thing then.

collegeburner 4y ago

Ancapistani 4y ago
> literally listen to all the girls who end up crying bc their boyfriends can't get it up and they think they ugly, but really it's porn addiction. … or it’s the well-known trend of decreasing testosterone levels among males in Western countries.
- collegeburner 4y ago
  i agree that's part of it and massive problem, and its kinda scary most 20 year olds would have to go on aggressive TRT to get close to people 80 years ago. however getting clean from porn for even a month seems to really help most of them. sometimes longer but def makes a difference and usually with time it gets fixed. i will say there's a theory that frequent masturbation lowers testosterone, telling your brain "yea i got a harem of chicks im good" so it doesn't need the aggression or drive. could just be broscience but an interesting area to explore. but yeah both problems deserve attention. tbh i wouldn't be surprised if politicians, media, etc. ignore it on purpose because it's correlated with lower violence or whatever.
  - isaacfrond 4y ago
    Masturbation does not seem to have any long-lasting effects on testosterone levels. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325418 https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325418.
    - collegeburner 4y ago
      i agree that those studies show normal masturbation doesn't. i'm saying maybe unhealthy addictive behavior (like 3 times a day) does and that hasn't been studied. i was also totally clear it might be broscience but that it's an interesting study area that bears considering.
4y ago

kurupt213 4y ago

Thats a long description of habit forming