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You think emacs is one of the worst things to happen to computer science? Thus putting it in the same rhetorical category as patents, multithreading, mutable d
by gchpaco 15y ago
You think emacs is one of the worst things to happen to computer science? Thus putting it in the same rhetorical category as patents, multithreading, mutable data, garbage collection, open source, closed source, closed journals, governments, debugging and Microsoft? Any one of which has far better credentials for that role? And you say this because the language it is largely written in is grotty? My god, man, get some perspective. The rest of your rant is nearly as content free--there have been more attempts at sound systems programming languages in the last five years than in the previous fifty.
Look, Emacs is among the last survivors of a very powerful paradigm, along with Squeak, some Forths, AutoCAD to some degree, and a handful of others. It is one of the last metarecursive programming environments. It is not even the zenith of that paradigm--I would probably give the nod to the Symbolics machines with Zwei, but I am largely ignorant of Interlisp and know it is much beloved. These environments are self documenting (for a very specific sense of "document"), extensible, discoverable (for example, C-h k on a key sequence and then click through to the source code; or on the Symbolics you could I think Super-left click a user interface element and immediately start discovering its code, instrument it for debugging, what have you), have internals written in the same language (mostly) as the user script, and any part can be modified at run time, with the modifications taking effect immediately which is what distinguishes them from the Eclipses of the world. These environments are, almost to a man, time consuming to learn; amorphous; frequently kinda pokey; and phenomenally, improbably productive. The fact that some of them can edit text is almost an accident.
I've used a cross section of editors and IDEs and build environments and what have you from recent innovations to decrepit monsters like TECO, and almost none of them have learned anything from Emacs. Some of them have better excuses than others (ed, for example, predating visual terminals). Of the alternatives the ones I found most interesting and most productive are Acme (which is brilliant, but ultimately I think too good at editing itself and not good enough at editing anything else) and Sublime Text 2 (the first new editor I can remember in years with an apropos function), and I'm including the latter mostly on promise rather than actual competence at this time.
- derpsaidderp 15y agoI know there are worse things. But that's why I ranted against emacs. It's good, but we can do so much better. So much. I have faith in you guys, and it's just, well hell I get sad when I see you writing something amazing in C or in emacs. You should be writing the next amazing C or the next emacs. Those tools are the keystones to how cs is able to express itself in a practical manner. And yet almost all new efforts are treated poorly or mocked. Like, that shit you are describing earlier? Those amazing modifiable and inspectable systems? Why aren't you preaching that from the roof tops? Why do I, the guy who barely knows emacs, have to whine? Cause seriously, that shit sounds fucking amazing. If anything, you should be the one whining "Jeez, after all those advances we only get emacs?"
- sjm 15y agoLanguages and text editors aren't the bottleneck, so writing the 'next amazing C' or the 'next emacs' is counter-productive at this stage.
- fakeempire 15y ago"Why do I, the guy who barely knows emacs, have to whine?" Because once you know emacs, you stop whining about it and start using it. You sound mad because all these people are using emacs and you just don't understand it yet or something. Spend time, learn emacs or vim and then you will understand. It is ridiculous for you to rant on something you obviously don't understand or recognize the power it possesses. Emacs and Vim have been around forever. There is a reason.