4 ms·

"the ID monopoly and Payment monopoly refuse to support other operating systems" This is my issue. I am commonly hearing people ask "What are you, iOS or Andro

"the ID monopoly and Payment monopoly refuse to support other operating systems" This is my issue. I am commonly hearing people ask "What are you, iOS or Android?" - IE as if it is inherent to the person themselves and there are only two choices. This is scary. I love the idea of having an alternative to iOS and Android. But I also need to function within society. This shouldn't be a choice.

3np 4y ago
Fortunately, we don't have the government handing out free handset so opting out is still a legal right and a practically realistic option. My concern is that if few enough people do so, this will no longer be the case for long.
- nivenkos 4y ago
  Is it though? Not long ago many European countries required some form of digital COVID pass for travel. Likewise for doing taxes e.g. here in Sweden BankID and Kivra are practically required unless you want to be waiting weeks for letters and queueing at the office.
  - dailykoder 4y ago
    You could've gotten the QR-Code on a piece of paper, without a phone (which still is ridiculous that they forced people to use some random QR-Code and ignored the internationally accepted vaccination card of the WHO)
  - Legogris 4y ago
    Last time I tried (granted, years ago), BankID was still relatively straight-forward to set up and use on a PC. Not all sites support the flow, though. Authorities should also still accept alternatives like Freja (if there's anything they won't close the door on it's making it straightforward to pay your taxes, I guess). I'm far from happy wit the situation and would prefer that authorities take an open standards-approach compatible with FLOSS. But it's also not as terrible as it may seem at first.
    - xorcist 4y ago
      But is it straight-forward to set up on any PC, or just those locked down with proprietary single vendor controlled software? In the latter case, it is not in any way better than a proprietary phone. In practice probably worse, since it is easier and cheaper to keep an extra phone around.
      - Legogris 4y ago
        Was running it fine on Linux IIRC (maybe look it up if you're actually interested?), but again, long time ago so things may have changed. EDIT: Things seem to have deteriorated quite a bit and no major improvement in sight. Maybe not a surprise. https://www.monperrus.net/martin/bankid-linux https://www.monperrus.net/martin/bankid-linux https://www.sweclockers.com/forum/trad/1592956-bankid-pa-linux https://www.sweclockers.com/forum/trad/1592956-bankid-pa-lin...
  - ElCheapo 4y ago
    >Not long ago many European countries required some form of digital COVID pass for travel. no they didn't? you could just access the platform on your computer and print the QR code the old fashioned way. Hell, you could do that without even having any electronics, you could just go to the library and print it there. >unless you want to be waiting weeks for letters and queueing at the office. this reads to me as "if you don't use these digital systems you have to do things like they were before digital systems"
    - GekkePrutser 4y ago
      True, I printed mine on credit card format and laminated it, it was in my card wallet. Much faster than opening an app every time and zero tracking, at least on my side. Glad we're rid of that though.
      - type0 4y ago
        I am quite confident that this wouldn't be allowed if there wasn't so many seniors without smartphones though
    - 3np 4y ago
      > this reads to me as "if you don't use these digital systems you have to do things like they were before digital systems" You missed the part where they might actually prefer to use digital systems but would only be able to so by delegating their identity to a trusted and locked down iOS or Android+SafetyNet device. Other comments seem to indicate that this is not a strict requirement for filing your taxes digitally where GP is at, but that's beside the point of your comment.
    - xorcist 4y ago
      > "if you don't use these digital systems you have to do things like they were before digital systems" There's also the expectation from society. Even getting that covid shot was hard without an app, to the point of an extra long queue where nothing worked and in the end a lady told me sternly that I shouldn't be there and to get with the times and that I am young enough to be able to use a smartphone. As if that was the problem ... That was just covid. Doing (non-trivial) taxes on paper involves some calculation, and I am liable if I get it wrong, whereas I know the web page does all calculations the right way. Then there's school reports, public transportation, public libraries, calling in sick to work, taking out pension, the list is long and every single step of it is an inconvenience constantly reminding me to just stick with the non-free, mainstream, controlled by a private company, way.
- _carbyau_ 4y ago
  The crazy thing was during COVID everyone seemed to launch an app - iOS or Android. What happened to websites? Did they suddenly become impossible to secure or communicate with?
  - oblak 4y ago
    Don't remind me. I tried to fight it for a decade. I was mad. MAD. We are being actively PUSHED into this shit and almost everyone seems to be totally fine with it. They are herding us into complete obedience. A phone is more secure because when you install their apps, they can monitor everything you do. Banking? Mobile. Document signing? Mobile. Toilet paper? Mobile. I am making a bet here: buy the end of the decade, every EU citizen will be directly required to go either Android or Apple. Two platforms under complete European control. Frankly, I blame the masses for falling for it. It's always the masses. Once the cabal swoops in the vast majority, the rest is taken care of by society itself.
    - GekkePrutser 4y ago
      Indeed, it's becoming hard to avoid it. Here in Spain we have the problem of this interpersonal payment system called "Bizum". It's like a local paypal but owned by the banks. So many people use it that it can't be avoided. But my bank (and others too) only offer this functionality in their mobile app, not on their website. So if you need to use it you're really forced to use the mobile app. In my case I have an old iPod Touch which I use only for this, nothing else. It works ok. But I wish I could just use it from the website from whatever device I want.
  - xvilka 4y ago
    Curiously, most of these apps are web-based anyway, just wrapped inside an app.
  - squarefoot 4y ago
    I have a dumb phone (Nokia 8110 4G) that I wouldn't trade with the latest iOS/Android model, and during Covid restrictions I downloaded and printed the pass at home with no problems. I also pay a small fee to my bank so I can keep using SMSs for transaction confirmations instead of surrendering to their app. Also using SMSs with PayPal and a few other online services. The day they force me to use smartphones which, privacy aside, to me are next to unusable crap, to do things I can easily do on a PC, is the day I'm retiring to a technology-free place for the rest of my life.
bayindirh 4y ago
Even if you use Android, using a custom ROM locks you out of your SIM based electronic signature, which is a showstopper for my case.
preisschild 4y ago
Even a non-popular Android isn't a choice for govmt e-id. I use a hardened Android distro (GrapheneOS) on my phone. Even with a locked bootloader and no root my countries (austria) e-government app and my banking app blocks me due to a "integrity check" failing.
- phatfish 4y ago
  I would guess it is because GrapheneOS does not pass the Google "SafteyNet" check. The Android distros that are more well known do not pass by default due to Google coming after them if they do. LineageOS has not passed it for the last few years. There are pretty simple patches you can apply though to get it passing, assuming nothing else about the phone triggers it.
  - preisschild 4y ago
    I don't even have the Google Services installed on my phone because I consider them a security and privacy risk. For now I can use my computer, because they fortunately also have a website, but I could see in the near-future that you have to have this app installed.
    - hulitu 4y ago
      Well that is the failure. If you don't give data to Google ( or Apple, or MS etc) you are considered by them as "a security and privacy risk.". Their privacy and security is at risk.
    - kaba0 4y ago
      You can run google services in a sandbox on grapheneos for only select programs.
- NoboruWataya 4y ago
  I would like to get a Pixel with GrapheneOS for my next phone but this is holding me back. Even if some of my banking apps are currently reported to work, there is no guarantee they won't break in future. It's too risky for me unfortunately, which is annoying.
type0 4y ago
> "What are you, iOS or Android?" - IE as if it is inherent to the person themselves and there are only two choices. in practice there are only two choices, it's called a duopoly and most people know it.
- _carbyau_ 4y ago
  The bit that scares me is the practice also becoming the theory too.
lrvick 4y ago
iOS or Android is a false dichotomy. I run a b2b tech company from Silicon Valley and do not have a phone at all. I carry cash, plastic ID, a paper vaccine card, etc. Restaurants push QR codes in my face and I explain I do not own a phone, and they never fail to produce a paper menu somehow. Restaurants that default to paper menus are generally classier and get more of my business anyway. I arrange to meet people at places and show up on time. I navigate by writing down directions and paying attention to my surroundings. A couple times I have had trouble with concerts not wanting to let me in without some nonsense ticket app. I go to the will call booth, explain I do not have a phone. They find a way to print me passes every time. I function in society just fine. Do not let people discriminate against you for what software you wish to use, or not use. Nothing in our constitution mandates you accept the terms of service of Apple or Google.
kaba0 4y ago
Well, in a way it is inherent. There is simply no place for a third competitor, as developing for even just 2 platforms is already the max a company would be willing to do. That’s why even Microsoft would a ridiculously huge budget failed, the market is simply saturated. The only way a new competitor could stand up is 100% compatibility with one of the platform’s app selection or a non-profit, open-source model. So linux phones with android comp may indeed have a future, but I think they should pretty much just ditch most of the existing linux desktop user space as it is fundamentally flawed (mostly security-wise), but then we are back to android and it begs the question, why reinvent the wheel instead of just fixing the few shortcomings of android, like too close coupling with google? If anything, we need better hardware, not software — grapheneOS is pretty much ideal as a linux/android OS.

3np 4y ago

Fortunately, we don't have the government handing out free handset so opting out is still a legal right and a practically realistic option. My concern is that if few enough people do so, this will no longer be the case for long.

nivenkos 4y ago
Is it though? Not long ago many European countries required some form of digital COVID pass for travel. Likewise for doing taxes e.g. here in Sweden BankID and Kivra are practically required unless you want to be waiting weeks for letters and queueing at the office.
- dailykoder 4y ago
  You could've gotten the QR-Code on a piece of paper, without a phone (which still is ridiculous that they forced people to use some random QR-Code and ignored the internationally accepted vaccination card of the WHO)
- Legogris 4y ago
  Last time I tried (granted, years ago), BankID was still relatively straight-forward to set up and use on a PC. Not all sites support the flow, though. Authorities should also still accept alternatives like Freja (if there's anything they won't close the door on it's making it straightforward to pay your taxes, I guess). I'm far from happy wit the situation and would prefer that authorities take an open standards-approach compatible with FLOSS. But it's also not as terrible as it may seem at first.
  - xorcist 4y ago
    But is it straight-forward to set up on any PC, or just those locked down with proprietary single vendor controlled software? In the latter case, it is not in any way better than a proprietary phone. In practice probably worse, since it is easier and cheaper to keep an extra phone around.
    - Legogris 4y ago
      Was running it fine on Linux IIRC (maybe look it up if you're actually interested?), but again, long time ago so things may have changed. EDIT: Things seem to have deteriorated quite a bit and no major improvement in sight. Maybe not a surprise. https://www.monperrus.net/martin/bankid-linux https://www.monperrus.net/martin/bankid-linux https://www.sweclockers.com/forum/trad/1592956-bankid-pa-linux https://www.sweclockers.com/forum/trad/1592956-bankid-pa-lin...
- ElCheapo 4y ago
  >Not long ago many European countries required some form of digital COVID pass for travel. no they didn't? you could just access the platform on your computer and print the QR code the old fashioned way. Hell, you could do that without even having any electronics, you could just go to the library and print it there. >unless you want to be waiting weeks for letters and queueing at the office. this reads to me as "if you don't use these digital systems you have to do things like they were before digital systems"
  - GekkePrutser 4y ago
    True, I printed mine on credit card format and laminated it, it was in my card wallet. Much faster than opening an app every time and zero tracking, at least on my side. Glad we're rid of that though.
    - type0 4y ago
      I am quite confident that this wouldn't be allowed if there wasn't so many seniors without smartphones though
  - 3np 4y ago
    > this reads to me as "if you don't use these digital systems you have to do things like they were before digital systems" You missed the part where they might actually prefer to use digital systems but would only be able to so by delegating their identity to a trusted and locked down iOS or Android+SafetyNet device. Other comments seem to indicate that this is not a strict requirement for filing your taxes digitally where GP is at, but that's beside the point of your comment.
  - xorcist 4y ago
    > "if you don't use these digital systems you have to do things like they were before digital systems" There's also the expectation from society. Even getting that covid shot was hard without an app, to the point of an extra long queue where nothing worked and in the end a lady told me sternly that I shouldn't be there and to get with the times and that I am young enough to be able to use a smartphone. As if that was the problem ... That was just covid. Doing (non-trivial) taxes on paper involves some calculation, and I am liable if I get it wrong, whereas I know the web page does all calculations the right way. Then there's school reports, public transportation, public libraries, calling in sick to work, taking out pension, the list is long and every single step of it is an inconvenience constantly reminding me to just stick with the non-free, mainstream, controlled by a private company, way.
_carbyau_ 4y ago
The crazy thing was during COVID everyone seemed to launch an app - iOS or Android. What happened to websites? Did they suddenly become impossible to secure or communicate with?
- oblak 4y ago
  Don't remind me. I tried to fight it for a decade. I was mad. MAD. We are being actively PUSHED into this shit and almost everyone seems to be totally fine with it. They are herding us into complete obedience. A phone is more secure because when you install their apps, they can monitor everything you do. Banking? Mobile. Document signing? Mobile. Toilet paper? Mobile. I am making a bet here: buy the end of the decade, every EU citizen will be directly required to go either Android or Apple. Two platforms under complete European control. Frankly, I blame the masses for falling for it. It's always the masses. Once the cabal swoops in the vast majority, the rest is taken care of by society itself.
  - GekkePrutser 4y ago
    Indeed, it's becoming hard to avoid it. Here in Spain we have the problem of this interpersonal payment system called "Bizum". It's like a local paypal but owned by the banks. So many people use it that it can't be avoided. But my bank (and others too) only offer this functionality in their mobile app, not on their website. So if you need to use it you're really forced to use the mobile app. In my case I have an old iPod Touch which I use only for this, nothing else. It works ok. But I wish I could just use it from the website from whatever device I want.
- xvilka 4y ago
  Curiously, most of these apps are web-based anyway, just wrapped inside an app.
- squarefoot 4y ago
  I have a dumb phone (Nokia 8110 4G) that I wouldn't trade with the latest iOS/Android model, and during Covid restrictions I downloaded and printed the pass at home with no problems. I also pay a small fee to my bank so I can keep using SMSs for transaction confirmations instead of surrendering to their app. Also using SMSs with PayPal and a few other online services. The day they force me to use smartphones which, privacy aside, to me are next to unusable crap, to do things I can easily do on a PC, is the day I'm retiring to a technology-free place for the rest of my life.

bayindirh 4y ago

Even if you use Android, using a custom ROM locks you out of your SIM based electronic signature, which is a showstopper for my case.

preisschild 4y ago

Even a non-popular Android isn't a choice for govmt e-id. I use a hardened Android distro (GrapheneOS) on my phone. Even with a locked bootloader and no root my countries (austria) e-government app and my banking app blocks me due to a "integrity check" failing.

phatfish 4y ago
I would guess it is because GrapheneOS does not pass the Google "SafteyNet" check. The Android distros that are more well known do not pass by default due to Google coming after them if they do. LineageOS has not passed it for the last few years. There are pretty simple patches you can apply though to get it passing, assuming nothing else about the phone triggers it.
- preisschild 4y ago
  I don't even have the Google Services installed on my phone because I consider them a security and privacy risk. For now I can use my computer, because they fortunately also have a website, but I could see in the near-future that you have to have this app installed.
  - hulitu 4y ago
    Well that is the failure. If you don't give data to Google ( or Apple, or MS etc) you are considered by them as "a security and privacy risk.". Their privacy and security is at risk.
  - kaba0 4y ago
    You can run google services in a sandbox on grapheneos for only select programs.
NoboruWataya 4y ago
I would like to get a Pixel with GrapheneOS for my next phone but this is holding me back. Even if some of my banking apps are currently reported to work, there is no guarantee they won't break in future. It's too risky for me unfortunately, which is annoying.

type0 4y ago

> "What are you, iOS or Android?" - IE as if it is inherent to the person themselves and there are only two choices. in practice there are only two choices, it's called a duopoly and most people know it.

_carbyau_ 4y ago
The bit that scares me is the practice also becoming the theory too.

lrvick 4y ago

iOS or Android is a false dichotomy. I run a b2b tech company from Silicon Valley and do not have a phone at all. I carry cash, plastic ID, a paper vaccine card, etc. Restaurants push QR codes in my face and I explain I do not own a phone, and they never fail to produce a paper menu somehow. Restaurants that default to paper menus are generally classier and get more of my business anyway. I arrange to meet people at places and show up on time. I navigate by writing down directions and paying attention to my surroundings. A couple times I have had trouble with concerts not wanting to let me in without some nonsense ticket app. I go to the will call booth, explain I do not have a phone. They find a way to print me passes every time. I function in society just fine. Do not let people discriminate against you for what software you wish to use, or not use. Nothing in our constitution mandates you accept the terms of service of Apple or Google.

kaba0 4y ago

Well, in a way it is inherent. There is simply no place for a third competitor, as developing for even just 2 platforms is already the max a company would be willing to do. That’s why even Microsoft would a ridiculously huge budget failed, the market is simply saturated. The only way a new competitor could stand up is 100% compatibility with one of the platform’s app selection or a non-profit, open-source model. So linux phones with android comp may indeed have a future, but I think they should pretty much just ditch most of the existing linux desktop user space as it is fundamentally flawed (mostly security-wise), but then we are back to android and it begs the question, why reinvent the wheel instead of just fixing the few shortcomings of android, like too close coupling with google? If anything, we need better hardware, not software — grapheneOS is pretty much ideal as a linux/android OS.