6 ms·

The US allows more immigrants than any other country. What exactly is the criticism?

nine_zeros 4y ago
> The US allows more immigrants than any other country. What exactly is the criticism? The system is unbelievably cruel. People die (or see their loved ones die) before they get greencards. It is not a numbers game. If you can attract the best, you need to let them thrive instead of enslaving them.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- outside1234 4y ago
  Are you referring to the 7% cap on the number of people that can get a green card from any one country in a calendar year?
  - nine_zeros 4y ago
    > Are you referring to the 7% cap on the number of people that can get a green card from any one country in a calendar year? No. I am talking about the constant asking for paperwork, processing times that vary from 2 months to over 2 years and preventing people from traveling to their home countries, lest they get locked out. This is how criminals are treated.
    - hunterb123 4y ago
      What is the processing time for European countries? What would your ideal processing time be that wouldn't be "criminal"?
      - nine_zeros 4y ago
        > What is the processing time for European countries? EU is not one country. Some countries have better timelines than others. > What would your ideal processing time be that wouldn't be "criminal"? My ideal would be asap. Make the decision quick. If you want to deny most applications, deny it. But do it quick.
        hunterb123 4y ago
        My point was to compare European countries as they were suggested by the GP to be better. Go ahead and choose one or so and come back with numbers to compare. You'll find the US is very good in comparison.
        manuelabeledo 4y ago
        Germany offers a shorter and significantly cheaper path to citizenship, for instance.
        hocuspocus 4y ago
        Plus incredibly easier paths to immigration on a skilled work permit and access to permanent residence. Like most EU countries.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        kylehotchkiss 4y ago
        Slow denials is a feature not a bug of immigration systems. Fast denials with systems that allow retries just quickly get backlogs of people applying again after finding a quick fix to the rejection reason, which makes it harder to give proper time to new applicants who may be more eligible.
        outworlder 4y ago
        > Fast denials with systems that allow retries There's nothing that says quick retries are allowed, or that subsequent tries should even be adjudicated quickly. Take H1Bs. If you get selected and subsequently denied, you can only apply next year. Some types of visas require a cooldown period outside the country after you have used them. And so on. This is all solvable.
      - outworlder 4y ago
        > What is the processing time for European countries? IRRELEVANT There's no reason why you should be prevented from traveling just because you applied for some document. Next you'll argue that noone is being prevented from traveling, technically. Don't bother. There's also no reason to require the _employer_ to handle all immigration matters. The initial application? Sure. But then allow the employer to file for his permanent residency. Let them file for visa extensions. Let them transfer employers without risk. Maybe get another source of income. _Let the spouses work!_ There's no reason to limit a household to a single income. And so on. That's how its done in many countries in Europe. You may say "you should go to those countries then". Many have. But you don't know the full extent of the issue until you are in the system. At which time you have relocated your family, upended your life, and staked your career in the system.
- hunterb123 4y ago
  > The system is unbelievably cruel. People die (or see their loved ones die) before they get greencards. People die before many things, that's not really relevant and it's just an emotional statement. Compare the length and rate to other countries for an actual assessment. A lot countries I've looked into take 5-10 years for citizenship, the US is 14.5 months on average. I'm talking about the amount of immigrants taken in vs other countries. Yes the US is large and can take in a lot of immigrants, and we do, by far.
  - nine_zeros 4y ago
    > Most countries I've looked into take up to 10 years. The set of countries you want to compare with are the countries that claim they want to welcome immigrants. You don't want to compare with countries that you like but are hostile. America claims to be immigrant friendly but compared to other immigrant friendly nations, the process is brutal and eats away entire lives. > A lot countries I've looked into take 5-10 years for citizenship, the US is 14.5 months on average. This is misinformation as citizenship petition N-400 is merely the last step. This does not count the time for green card before this. Getting a green card could take 3-10 years. Then, they'd need to remain a permanent resident for 5 years before they can even apply for citizenship.
    - hunterb123 4y ago
      No 14.5 months is the average for naturalization. https://www.boundless.com/immigration-resources/how-long-does-it-take-to-get-citizenship-after-applying/ https://www.boundless.com/immigration-resources/how-long-doe... Total time is 18.5-24 months to wrap up everything, but the 14.5 months you're able to be in the US which is what matters. How does that compare to other countries? What's your ideal country that has the best immigration times? - edit - Green card from nil is also just a year or so on average, in which case you are living in the US and able to work. These numbers are very comparable and much better than most countries. Please provide your ideal country so we can compare numbers.
      - ra7 4y ago
lotsofpulp 4y ago
The criticism is tying visa status to employer. No reason to do that unless you want to suppress wages for US residents.
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  That is why there are other visa types. You are talking about a type of visa specifically intended as a mechanism to fill a specific seat at a specific company. For other forms of immigration, there are other types of visas.
  - isatty 4y ago
    Like what? I went over the USCIS page and Wikipedia and there does not seem to be very many options for skilled workers besides H and L, both of which are tied to employers.
    - fooker 4y ago
      O1 visas are for skilled workers without getting tied to a company. But you have to be really skilled!
      - kareemsabri 4y ago
        You don't have to be all that skilled (depending on the field). You do need the money to self-petition though. Many pretty average people use the O-1.
        screye 4y ago
        I don't know of a single tech worker who could get an O-1 without a top PhD.
        kareemsabri 4y ago
        I know many who got it with a bachelors degree. Advanced degrees are not even a part of the eligibility criteria. https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-2-part-m-chapter-4 https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-2-part-m-chapter-...
curious_cat_163 4y ago
I don't think absolute numbers tell the story. Also, it is not a complaint, really. I think the citizens in the US have a right to decide as a polity how they want to structure their immigration policies. However, in order to make a good decision, it is important to start with the full context. Here are some facts: US has 46.6 million in foreign born population and a total population of 333 million. [1][2] That makes about 13.9% of the total population to be foreign born. Australia has 29.1% of its population that is foreign born. [3] A little over 20% of the population of Canada is foreign born and it is projected to grow. [4] [1] https://cis.org/Camarota/ForeignBorn-Population-Hits-Record-466-Million-January-2022 https://cis.org/Camarota/ForeignBorn-Population-Hits-Record-... [2] https://www.census.gov/popclock/ https://www.census.gov/popclock/ [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-born_population_of_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-born_population_of_Aus... [4] https://www.statcan.gc.ca/en/dai/btd/othervisuals/other006 https://www.statcan.gc.ca/en/dai/btd/othervisuals/other006
manuelabeledo 4y ago
Discounting non immigrant visas, I’m not sure that this is true.
hocuspocus 4y ago
Mostly through family reunion which is completely irrelevant to the issue discussed here. The US has the most nonsensical immigration laws for skilled workers of the developed world. Even Japan or Korea are pretty straightforward in comparison.

> The US allows more immigrants than any other country. What exactly is the criticism? The system is unbelievably cruel. People die (or see their loved ones die) before they get greencards. It is not a numbers game. If you can attract the best, you need to let them thrive instead of enslaving them.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
outside1234 4y ago
Are you referring to the 7% cap on the number of people that can get a green card from any one country in a calendar year?
- nine_zeros 4y ago
  > Are you referring to the 7% cap on the number of people that can get a green card from any one country in a calendar year? No. I am talking about the constant asking for paperwork, processing times that vary from 2 months to over 2 years and preventing people from traveling to their home countries, lest they get locked out. This is how criminals are treated.
  - hunterb123 4y ago
    What is the processing time for European countries? What would your ideal processing time be that wouldn't be "criminal"?
    - nine_zeros 4y ago
      > What is the processing time for European countries? EU is not one country. Some countries have better timelines than others. > What would your ideal processing time be that wouldn't be "criminal"? My ideal would be asap. Make the decision quick. If you want to deny most applications, deny it. But do it quick.
      - hunterb123 4y ago
        My point was to compare European countries as they were suggested by the GP to be better. Go ahead and choose one or so and come back with numbers to compare. You'll find the US is very good in comparison.
        manuelabeledo 4y ago
        Germany offers a shorter and significantly cheaper path to citizenship, for instance.
        hocuspocus 4y ago
        Plus incredibly easier paths to immigration on a skilled work permit and access to permanent residence. Like most EU countries.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - kylehotchkiss 4y ago
        Slow denials is a feature not a bug of immigration systems. Fast denials with systems that allow retries just quickly get backlogs of people applying again after finding a quick fix to the rejection reason, which makes it harder to give proper time to new applicants who may be more eligible.
        outworlder 4y ago
        > Fast denials with systems that allow retries There's nothing that says quick retries are allowed, or that subsequent tries should even be adjudicated quickly. Take H1Bs. If you get selected and subsequently denied, you can only apply next year. Some types of visas require a cooldown period outside the country after you have used them. And so on. This is all solvable.
    - outworlder 4y ago
      > What is the processing time for European countries? IRRELEVANT There's no reason why you should be prevented from traveling just because you applied for some document. Next you'll argue that noone is being prevented from traveling, technically. Don't bother. There's also no reason to require the _employer_ to handle all immigration matters. The initial application? Sure. But then allow the employer to file for his permanent residency. Let them file for visa extensions. Let them transfer employers without risk. Maybe get another source of income. _Let the spouses work!_ There's no reason to limit a household to a single income. And so on. That's how its done in many countries in Europe. You may say "you should go to those countries then". Many have. But you don't know the full extent of the issue until you are in the system. At which time you have relocated your family, upended your life, and staked your career in the system.
hunterb123 4y ago
> The system is unbelievably cruel. People die (or see their loved ones die) before they get greencards. People die before many things, that's not really relevant and it's just an emotional statement. Compare the length and rate to other countries for an actual assessment. A lot countries I've looked into take 5-10 years for citizenship, the US is 14.5 months on average. I'm talking about the amount of immigrants taken in vs other countries. Yes the US is large and can take in a lot of immigrants, and we do, by far.
- nine_zeros 4y ago
  > Most countries I've looked into take up to 10 years. The set of countries you want to compare with are the countries that claim they want to welcome immigrants. You don't want to compare with countries that you like but are hostile. America claims to be immigrant friendly but compared to other immigrant friendly nations, the process is brutal and eats away entire lives. > A lot countries I've looked into take 5-10 years for citizenship, the US is 14.5 months on average. This is misinformation as citizenship petition N-400 is merely the last step. This does not count the time for green card before this. Getting a green card could take 3-10 years. Then, they'd need to remain a permanent resident for 5 years before they can even apply for citizenship.
  - hunterb123 4y ago
    No 14.5 months is the average for naturalization. https://www.boundless.com/immigration-resources/how-long-does-it-take-to-get-citizenship-after-applying/ https://www.boundless.com/immigration-resources/how-long-doe... Total time is 18.5-24 months to wrap up everything, but the 14.5 months you're able to be in the US which is what matters. How does that compare to other countries? What's your ideal country that has the best immigration times? - edit - Green card from nil is also just a year or so on average, in which case you are living in the US and able to work. These numbers are very comparable and much better than most countries. Please provide your ideal country so we can compare numbers.
    - ra7 4y ago

lotsofpulp 4y ago

The criticism is tying visa status to employer. No reason to do that unless you want to suppress wages for US residents.

ROTMetro 4y ago
That is why there are other visa types. You are talking about a type of visa specifically intended as a mechanism to fill a specific seat at a specific company. For other forms of immigration, there are other types of visas.
- isatty 4y ago
  Like what? I went over the USCIS page and Wikipedia and there does not seem to be very many options for skilled workers besides H and L, both of which are tied to employers.
  - fooker 4y ago
    O1 visas are for skilled workers without getting tied to a company. But you have to be really skilled!
    - kareemsabri 4y ago
      You don't have to be all that skilled (depending on the field). You do need the money to self-petition though. Many pretty average people use the O-1.
      - screye 4y ago
        I don't know of a single tech worker who could get an O-1 without a top PhD.
        kareemsabri 4y ago
        I know many who got it with a bachelors degree. Advanced degrees are not even a part of the eligibility criteria. https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-2-part-m-chapter-4 https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-2-part-m-chapter-...

curious_cat_163 4y ago

I don't think absolute numbers tell the story. Also, it is not a complaint, really. I think the citizens in the US have a right to decide as a polity how they want to structure their immigration policies. However, in order to make a good decision, it is important to start with the full context. Here are some facts: US has 46.6 million in foreign born population and a total population of 333 million. [1][2] That makes about 13.9% of the total population to be foreign born. Australia has 29.1% of its population that is foreign born. [3] A little over 20% of the population of Canada is foreign born and it is projected to grow. [4] [1] https://cis.org/Camarota/ForeignBorn-Population-Hits-Record-466-Million-January-2022 https://cis.org/Camarota/ForeignBorn-Population-Hits-Record-... [2] https://www.census.gov/popclock/ https://www.census.gov/popclock/ [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-born_population_of_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-born_population_of_Aus... [4] https://www.statcan.gc.ca/en/dai/btd/othervisuals/other006 https://www.statcan.gc.ca/en/dai/btd/othervisuals/other006

manuelabeledo 4y ago

Discounting non immigrant visas, I’m not sure that this is true.

hocuspocus 4y ago

Mostly through family reunion which is completely irrelevant to the issue discussed here. The US has the most nonsensical immigration laws for skilled workers of the developed world. Even Japan or Korea are pretty straightforward in comparison.