6 ms·

There are reasons for that, but they are generally bad ones involving people not wanting to live near other people who look like the author of the article, even

by davidw 4y ago

There are reasons for that, but they are generally bad ones involving people not wanting to live near other people who look like the author of the article, even if they won't say that part out loud. Higher density housing is a massive component of building lower carbon footprint cities, as well as making our cities more financially resilient. It's also something that can increase equity a lot by giving people with lower incomes access to nicer areas and schools. https://www.brookings.edu/research/we-cant-beat-the-climate-crisis-without-rethinking-land-use/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/we-cant-beat-the-climate-...

eli_gottlieb 4y ago
>There are reasons for that, but they are generally bad ones involving people not wanting to live near other people Could have just ended the sentence there.
- davidw 4y ago
  That's not it though, really. People with a bit of cash - the kind who show up to planning commission hearings at 2 in the afternoon on weekdays - can very easily go buy some land in a remote place and do just that. They like city amenities though.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
    Maybe? Some of us have significant others, who believe staying close to family and whatnot is of some importance. I don't, but I am biased since I left mine thousands of miles away and have not looked back much. If it was up to me, I would already have moved somewhere with lower taxes, but "kids, school and so on" currently takes priority over my selfish needs. <<They like city amenities though. Yes. I pay for them. I better like them. Otherwise, I will be the one complaining during next board meeting.
jaywalk 4y ago
You're never going to win anyone over with the tired "if you disagree with me, you're a racist" BS. Low-income, high-density housing attracts problems. It has literally nothing to do with race. You could guarantee that the high-rise apartment building you want to construct down the street from me would be 100% filled with people who look like me, and I'd still oppose it. Keep your YIMBY nonsense IYBY.
- davidw 4y ago
  It's a pretty well document fact that it has a lot of its roots in racism. https://www.epi.org/publication/the-color-of-law-a-forgotten-history-of-how-our-government-segregated-america/ https://www.epi.org/publication/the-color-of-law-a-forgotten... If that makes you feel uncomfortable, so be it. Americans spend zillions of dollars every year visiting Europe, which is full of high density housing. And come home raving about how much they love it. It does not 'cause problems'.
  - jaywalk 4y ago
    America is not Europe. It will never be Europe. Things that work in Europe may not work in America, and vice-versa.
    - ryukafalz 4y ago
      This always strikes me as an unsatisfying response. What about America is so fundamentally different than Europe that would make the same policies that work there not work here? Every time I’ve seen this type of argument brought up, it’s fallen flat when the same infrastructure is built here because it does end up working. We’re really not so unique.
      - ethbr0 4y ago
        Land area and population density? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_depend...
bondarchuk 4y ago
The author: https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/about/tim-henderson https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/sta...
- davidw 4y ago
  I'm talking about the author of the article I cited, Jerusalem Demsas.
spoonjim 4y ago
- dev-3892 4y ago
  Also, inevitably, more fingers per square foot, more calories consumed per acre, higher water usage, and more conversations per minute in the neighborhood. things that people do increase when there are more people. really unclear what your point is here, and the way you said it really makes you look mean.
  - spoonjim 4y ago
    Per capita murder rates are much higher in large cities than in rural areas.
    - klyrs 4y ago
      That's the common wisdom, but is it true? https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-06-07/is-new-york-city-more-dangerous-than-rural-america https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-06-07/is-new...
- jason0597 4y ago
  The level of crime in Rotterdam is lower than in San Francisco though
- cycomanic 4y ago
  It's a nice story except that the statistics seem to say something different. The states with the highest homocide rates are actually not very densely populated. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2021-11-12/cdc-report-states-with-the-highest-homicide-rates-in-2020 https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2021-11-12/...
throwaway22032 4y ago
In the UK social housing has a bad reputation because poor people are far more likely to just be nightmares to live nearby. I lived in one throughout my entire childhood. Around half of people were OK, the other half just generally dickheads. That has 0 to do with racism. Many UK towns have trivial populations of non-"White British". The problem is mostly that over time (years or generations) poverty gradually turns people into a shell of what a well adjusted human could otherwise be.
- davidw 4y ago
  You can make a decent argument that concentrated poverty does cause some problems. Which is why you should do your best to spread all kinds of housing throughout a city, including plenty of upzoning in wealthier areas.
  - throwaway22032 4y ago
    I'd rather just live next to well off people to be honest. We do it on a national scale in most countries (visa policy). That's far harsher.
  - jaywalk 4y ago
    Just build high-density housing in rich areas! And then what, you expect rich people to move in? They won't. Poor people are going to move in. And the rich people who made that area nice in the first place are going to flee, because it will turn into a not-nice area.
    - ryukafalz 4y ago
      Famously all the rich people have moved out of Manhattan.
      - jaywalk 4y ago
        Manhattan is Manhattan. My nice, quiet suburb is not Manhattan.
A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
<<but they are generally bad ones Um.. the qualifier is very broad. I would posit that the owner of the house ( and therefore part of a given community ) is in a very good position to judge whether or not a given project is, or is not, beneficial to that community. There is nothing to be quiet about. Neighborhoods that house predominantly black population tend to have houses with lower dollar value. As a result, chances to transform the owner's local habitat to one that that does not benefit the owner is highly irrational, regardless of current political winds. << It's also something that can increase equity a lot by giving people with lower incomes access to nicer areas and schools. They are not nicer as a matter of fact. Part of that niceness is being funded with higher prices ( and taxes ). You take that away by adding some things NIMBYs are fighting about and the result is a neighborhood whites will flee. And cries of racism will continue. edit: clarified value in first paragraph
ROTMetro 4y ago
I don't want higher density for the same reason I don't go on vacations on cruise ships and don't use public transportation. People are gross and assholes. The more people the more chance of tragedy of the commons, and once it sets in it is hard to stop. Most college educated Americans lived in college dorms, and went on to NOT want to live in shared building environments. It's not about racism, it's about not wanting to live in high density areas, hence buying homes with ZONING LAWS that guarantee me I can live how I choose. If I want high density, that is what cities are for. Stop trying to TAKE my (property) rights away(that is what zoning laws are, guarantee of my RIGHTS as they related to THE LARGEST INVESTMENT I WILL EVER MAKE IN MY LIFE). It's great to have an opinion, but to project onto others in order to make yourself feel superior and manipulate power dynamics is why this country is falling apart. Every action you take should BUILD and add value, not simply tear some 'other' down. But that would be hard, and BUILDING society is hard, and you would have to endure others having a right to their opinion. To quote Julius Caesar “It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.”. You are a fine soldier for your cause, but your argument shows signs of a poor citizen.
- ryukafalz 4y ago
  You don’t have a property right to your neighbors’ properties. Your neighbors do.
- travisathougies 4y ago
  Actually, zoning laws are not part of your property rights. Zoning restriction dictate what you can build on your property, but ownership interest in your property does not entitle you to 'buy' zoning laws. This is easily seen as you cannot sell zoning laws. Zoning laws ultimately restrict your property rights as you lose the right to do what you wish with your property. They ought to be abolished to protect property rights. Most societies did just fine without zoning laws for the entirety of human history. Note, that I don't approach this from the YIMBY or woke side of things. Rather, as a pretty staunch free market advocate, it is painfully obvious to me that we should not restrict people's rights to do with their property as they see fit. As an example, I was recently going to buy land to develop into a business. However, zoning laws in this area of the county (in the middle of nowhere mind you) meant I would have to jump through endless permit and red tape. Any so-called supporter of property rights should be livid that this goes on in this country. Buying the land should be enough to give me rights to do what I wish with it. Environmental laws should deal with actual human health hazards, not how much shadow I'm spilling onto a neighboring property or how much view I'm blocking. A lot of the issues with zoning is people attempting to own that which they don't. You don't own your neighbor's property.

by davidw 4y ago

eli_gottlieb 4y ago

>There are reasons for that, but they are generally bad ones involving people not wanting to live near other people Could have just ended the sentence there.

davidw 4y ago
That's not it though, really. People with a bit of cash - the kind who show up to planning commission hearings at 2 in the afternoon on weekdays - can very easily go buy some land in a remote place and do just that. They like city amenities though.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  Maybe? Some of us have significant others, who believe staying close to family and whatnot is of some importance. I don't, but I am biased since I left mine thousands of miles away and have not looked back much. If it was up to me, I would already have moved somewhere with lower taxes, but "kids, school and so on" currently takes priority over my selfish needs. <<They like city amenities though. Yes. I pay for them. I better like them. Otherwise, I will be the one complaining during next board meeting.

jaywalk 4y ago

You're never going to win anyone over with the tired "if you disagree with me, you're a racist" BS. Low-income, high-density housing attracts problems. It has literally nothing to do with race. You could guarantee that the high-rise apartment building you want to construct down the street from me would be 100% filled with people who look like me, and I'd still oppose it. Keep your YIMBY nonsense IYBY.

davidw 4y ago
It's a pretty well document fact that it has a lot of its roots in racism. https://www.epi.org/publication/the-color-of-law-a-forgotten-history-of-how-our-government-segregated-america/ https://www.epi.org/publication/the-color-of-law-a-forgotten... If that makes you feel uncomfortable, so be it. Americans spend zillions of dollars every year visiting Europe, which is full of high density housing. And come home raving about how much they love it. It does not 'cause problems'.
- jaywalk 4y ago
  America is not Europe. It will never be Europe. Things that work in Europe may not work in America, and vice-versa.
  - ryukafalz 4y ago
    This always strikes me as an unsatisfying response. What about America is so fundamentally different than Europe that would make the same policies that work there not work here? Every time I’ve seen this type of argument brought up, it’s fallen flat when the same infrastructure is built here because it does end up working. We’re really not so unique.
    - ethbr0 4y ago
      Land area and population density? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_depend...

bondarchuk 4y ago

The author: https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/about/tim-henderson https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/sta...

davidw 4y ago
I'm talking about the author of the article I cited, Jerusalem Demsas.

spoonjim 4y ago

dev-3892 4y ago
Also, inevitably, more fingers per square foot, more calories consumed per acre, higher water usage, and more conversations per minute in the neighborhood. things that people do increase when there are more people. really unclear what your point is here, and the way you said it really makes you look mean.
- spoonjim 4y ago
  Per capita murder rates are much higher in large cities than in rural areas.
  - klyrs 4y ago
    That's the common wisdom, but is it true? https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-06-07/is-new-york-city-more-dangerous-than-rural-america https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-06-07/is-new...
jason0597 4y ago
The level of crime in Rotterdam is lower than in San Francisco though
cycomanic 4y ago
It's a nice story except that the statistics seem to say something different. The states with the highest homocide rates are actually not very densely populated. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2021-11-12/cdc-report-states-with-the-highest-homicide-rates-in-2020 https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2021-11-12/...

throwaway22032 4y ago

In the UK social housing has a bad reputation because poor people are far more likely to just be nightmares to live nearby. I lived in one throughout my entire childhood. Around half of people were OK, the other half just generally dickheads. That has 0 to do with racism. Many UK towns have trivial populations of non-"White British". The problem is mostly that over time (years or generations) poverty gradually turns people into a shell of what a well adjusted human could otherwise be.

davidw 4y ago
You can make a decent argument that concentrated poverty does cause some problems. Which is why you should do your best to spread all kinds of housing throughout a city, including plenty of upzoning in wealthier areas.
- throwaway22032 4y ago
  I'd rather just live next to well off people to be honest. We do it on a national scale in most countries (visa policy). That's far harsher.
- jaywalk 4y ago
  Just build high-density housing in rich areas! And then what, you expect rich people to move in? They won't. Poor people are going to move in. And the rich people who made that area nice in the first place are going to flee, because it will turn into a not-nice area.
  - ryukafalz 4y ago
    Famously all the rich people have moved out of Manhattan.
    - jaywalk 4y ago
      Manhattan is Manhattan. My nice, quiet suburb is not Manhattan.

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago

<<but they are generally bad ones Um.. the qualifier is very broad. I would posit that the owner of the house ( and therefore part of a given community ) is in a very good position to judge whether or not a given project is, or is not, beneficial to that community. There is nothing to be quiet about. Neighborhoods that house predominantly black population tend to have houses with lower dollar value. As a result, chances to transform the owner's local habitat to one that that does not benefit the owner is highly irrational, regardless of current political winds. << It's also something that can increase equity a lot by giving people with lower incomes access to nicer areas and schools. They are not nicer as a matter of fact. Part of that niceness is being funded with higher prices ( and taxes ). You take that away by adding some things NIMBYs are fighting about and the result is a neighborhood whites will flee. And cries of racism will continue. edit: clarified value in first paragraph

ROTMetro 4y ago

I don't want higher density for the same reason I don't go on vacations on cruise ships and don't use public transportation. People are gross and assholes. The more people the more chance of tragedy of the commons, and once it sets in it is hard to stop. Most college educated Americans lived in college dorms, and went on to NOT want to live in shared building environments. It's not about racism, it's about not wanting to live in high density areas, hence buying homes with ZONING LAWS that guarantee me I can live how I choose. If I want high density, that is what cities are for. Stop trying to TAKE my (property) rights away(that is what zoning laws are, guarantee of my RIGHTS as they related to THE LARGEST INVESTMENT I WILL EVER MAKE IN MY LIFE). It's great to have an opinion, but to project onto others in order to make yourself feel superior and manipulate power dynamics is why this country is falling apart. Every action you take should BUILD and add value, not simply tear some 'other' down. But that would be hard, and BUILDING society is hard, and you would have to endure others having a right to their opinion. To quote Julius Caesar “It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.”. You are a fine soldier for your cause, but your argument shows signs of a poor citizen.

ryukafalz 4y ago
You don’t have a property right to your neighbors’ properties. Your neighbors do.
travisathougies 4y ago
Actually, zoning laws are not part of your property rights. Zoning restriction dictate what you can build on your property, but ownership interest in your property does not entitle you to 'buy' zoning laws. This is easily seen as you cannot sell zoning laws. Zoning laws ultimately restrict your property rights as you lose the right to do what you wish with your property. They ought to be abolished to protect property rights. Most societies did just fine without zoning laws for the entirety of human history. Note, that I don't approach this from the YIMBY or woke side of things. Rather, as a pretty staunch free market advocate, it is painfully obvious to me that we should not restrict people's rights to do with their property as they see fit. As an example, I was recently going to buy land to develop into a business. However, zoning laws in this area of the county (in the middle of nowhere mind you) meant I would have to jump through endless permit and red tape. Any so-called supporter of property rights should be livid that this goes on in this country. Buying the land should be enough to give me rights to do what I wish with it. Environmental laws should deal with actual human health hazards, not how much shadow I'm spilling onto a neighboring property or how much view I'm blocking. A lot of the issues with zoning is people attempting to own that which they don't. You don't own your neighbor's property.