11 ms·

It's mentioned already, but: Android. Discounting Android as "Not Linux" enough is a mind boggle to me. Perhaps not "GNU" enough, but certainly the spirit of L

It's mentioned already, but: Android. Discounting Android as "Not Linux" enough is a mind boggle to me. Perhaps not "GNU" enough, but certainly the spirit of Linux -- customized for the particular needs, stable, fast, works on a plethora of hardware, etc.

not2b 4y ago
Yes, articles like this illustrate that RMS had a point, as annoying as he can be about it. Android is obviously Linux. What's missing is all of the things GNU and BSD brought to the party.
- cma 4y ago
  Try reading Linux man pages on things like system calls to map shared memory. On Android it won't work, and you have to call into Java code to do it. Google created a monster rather than work to get things merged into the kernel (there was some kind of possible resource leak or DoS with shared memory mapping).
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Linux kernel is an implementation detail on Android.
humanwhosits 4y ago
fuchsia (+starnix for legacy) might make android much less linux-y over the long term
kitsunesoba 4y ago
Vanilla Android or AOSP might kinda have “Linux Spirit” but I’m not sure what gets shipped on most consumer devices does… lots of random things locked down (including boot loader, sometimes), crapware all over the place, drivers and kernel changes that aren’t upstreamed making it difficult to install anything but carrier/manufacturer-flavored Android, etc. I think most people rooting for “smartphone Linux” are looking to be able to swap and customize OSes on their phones and tablets as easily as they do on their x86 PCs without futzing around with device specific ROMs and the like.
- calvinmorrison 4y ago
  My pixel broke (was running CalyxOS, lineage before that), and I had to get a quick burner phone to make work calls. Got a $200 dollar used samsung. I didn't realize what utter trash nonsense is loaded onto normal phones. It's absolutely bonkers what Samsung did to destroy Android with no value add.
  - giantrobot 4y ago
    > It's absolutely bonkers what Samsung did to destroy Android with no value add. They added value, just not for end users.
  - BossingAround 4y ago
    To be honest though, there's a huge difference between the Android experience on a $200 Samsung phone, and a $2000 one. I have a Galaxy S10, and the experience is fairly good (though I would prefer at least a vanilla Android).
- zozbot234 4y ago
  Even AOSP is running something quite far from a mainline kernel, although they've been gradually reducing the delta with Linux proper. It really is a fork.
  - azinman2 4y ago
    But why is a fork still not Linux? Every major distributor runs a fork.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Because Linux kernel is an implementation detail in what Android userspace is concerned.
- sleepymoose 4y ago
  >including boot loader, sometimes Perhaps in the past, but it feels like more and more this is shifting toward the expectation, rather than the exception.
water-your-self 4y ago
The android operating system is not open soruce.
- CharlesW 4y ago
  https://source.android.com/docs/setup/start/licenses https://source.android.com/docs/setup/start/licenses
  - blendergeek 4y ago
    That is the license for the Android Open Source Project. Unfortunately, Google has spent the last fifteen years moving many parts of the stack and almost (if not) all the core apps to Google Proprietary versions. Most apps in AOSP no longer receive updates at all. The dream is here is not just that we would be running "an open source stack" but that the active development would be on the open source stack. Sure, there are new releases of AOSP. But take a look at the core apps: Contacts, Calendar, Camera, Email, Location services. These are all proprietary now. Android is open source in the same sort of way that MacOS is open source. There are some open source bits in there.
    - colordrops 4y ago
      Who cares about the google user space apps? There are viable open source alternatives for all of them. It's like saying Linux is not open source because Redhat bundles proprietary software with their distro.
      - seba_dos1 4y ago
        This could have been a reasonable analogy if a very significant chunk of applications "for Linux" only worked (or offered its full functionality) if you had Red Hat's proprietary addons installed.
        midoridensha 4y ago
        Many millions of people in China happily use Android smartphones every day without any Google apps at all.
lrvick 4y ago
Android is Linux but it has nowhere close to the fully open source freedom of a traditional Linux workstation. This is why I carry a tiny linux laptop.
- CharlesW 4y ago
  Phones are not PCs/general-purpose computers. Do you want your TV to be a general purpose computer as well? (Having put my family through a Media Center PC and TV remotes with keyboards/trackpads for several years, I don't recommend it.)
  - fsflover 4y ago
    My Pinephone is a general-purpose computer, which runs a desktop OS and can be connected to a keyboard and screen. Same for Librem 5, which I preordered.
  - cma 4y ago
    I run termux on mine and wish termux wasn't so restricted by google/android.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Maybe Termux can learn to code against Java APIs instead of forcing themselves through the Linux layer that is considered a private API on Android.
      - cma 4y ago
        Typically the Java APIs are restricted to the bare minimum Chrome Android needs to do sandboxing and native code-gen for V8. Shared memory only works in a more limited way with many less options. They'd really like to restrict these APIs way more and not allow apps any way of loading dynamic native code with the exec bit set, but can't because of Chrome and antitrust worries about just making Chrome system software with access to the APIs it needs that a competitor couldn't replicate in an APK. I think you can see some of their thinking with the removal of exec; they just want to undercut termux because that isn't needed for V8, but as long as loadable generated native code is still needed for Chrome, termux could potentially create their own ELF loader to replace exec).
nivenkos 4y ago
When I think of a Linux phone, I really want something that supports a full GNU/Linux desktop as convergence. The Steam Deck does this perfectly!
- Teever 4y ago
  Damn, you got me thinking now, that Valve of all people could probably put out a Linux phone. The Steam Phone could be a game changer.
  - Bilal_io 4y ago
    I would buy a Steam Phone, and I'd want a big Valve logo on its back, and an easter egg that says "half-life 3 is not coming"
  - nivenkos 4y ago
    Yeah, I think the main issue is getting support for WhatsApp and banking and ID services (that usually block even just rooted Android phones). I'm literally writing this comment from my Steam Deck.
  - saidinesh5 4y ago
    You may actually be onto something here! Especially if the smaller steam deck clones like Aya neo Air Pro ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw-0ngNgGC0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw-0ngNgGC0 ) can support voice calls and a decent camera (the only other things my "mobile gamer" friends care about in a phone), I think there will be a niche market around it. Nokia N-Gage reborn! We already have decent enough android apps support on linux using anbox / waydroid. For the edge case android apps.
  - hrbf 4y ago
    For a niche market, possibly. However, I just don't see Valve as a company being interested in becoming a phone manufacturer. What would realistically be in for them? It's strategically mostly irrelevant to their core business, with the sole exception of the Steam Store. But to create, develop and support a whole phone platform (hard- and software) just to sell mobile games? I don't see it.
notmyaccountt 4y ago
Google created an Android userspace that requires Google services to do anything meaningful. This violates everything Linux stands for.
- colordrops 4y ago
  Not great, agreed, but they did at least architect the OS so that they are decoupled and you can build without them very easily. In fact the largest custom ROM doesn't bundle with them by default (LineageOS). What do you need Google services for?
  - GekkePrutser 4y ago
    LineageOS doesn't bundle Google Play by default because they're not allowed to, not because they don't want to. In fact they would like to because a majority of their users install it. But there's a lot of legal strings attached to it.
- est31 4y ago
  I think it's better to come up with replacements for those Google services and apps instead of rewriting the entire operating system. You need to solve the same problems on a linux smartphone as well, so Android gave you a lot of time savings, and I doubt the app sandboxing is even remotely as good on those non-Android linuxes. For Google Play for example there is F-droid, for push messages/FCM there is UnifiedPush, for Google Maps there is Osmand.
- rrdharan 4y ago
  Who decides what "Linux" stands for? Linus? RMS? "The community"?
  - dannymi 4y ago
    Linux is a trademark owned by Linus Torvalds. So Linus decides.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    My personal objective take is if it runs a Linux kernel, it's Linux. Any other factor is subjective and does not matter. Legally though, Linus Torvalds gets to define what Linux is because he owns that name.
cma 4y ago
When mapping shared memory or checking for the right broadcast subnet requires calling into Java code... it isn't Linux on the user side so much anymore.
bhedgeoser 4y ago
What they're referring to as linux is actually gnu/linux, or as I like to call it, gnu+linux.
OJFord 4y ago
I suppose it depends what you mean/want by 'Linux'? In a nutshell I suppose I want systemd & config files.
seba_dos1 4y ago
So have you watched the talk? It's mentioned there and the talk describes pretty well why it's not what many people are looking for. You may want to watch it after all.
NotYourLawyer 4y ago
Android is not an acceptable Linux.
gsich 4y ago
You don't interact with Linux by using Android, it's Java. Android could also have been based on FreeBSD, wouldn't have made a difference for the user.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
pxc 4y ago
Yes, Android is absolutely not GNU enough. This terminological goofiness is the flipside of using the term 'Linux' to refer to a whole bunch of GNU/Linux operating systems. Here's the thing though, this is not even about abstract ideals. When we say Android is not 'real Linux', what it comes down to is this: there's a certain peace, a sense of relief— of being respected— that comes with running Linux on your personal desktop or server. It feels really, really different from using an OS whose main function, which has driven its evolution, is just to sell you paid apps and services. That makes it fun, and it lends itself to a certain fluency. Running any variety of Android is just an alien experience to all of that. Android doesn't feel good to use the way that Linux does for people who like running Linux on other contexts. And that's why it makes perfect sense to say it's 'not Linux enough'. The experience speaks powerfully enough for itself that it hardly seems worth explaining tbh. If you actually get what is good about running Linux and you've ever sought those virtues in Android, you already get it.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  >When we say Android is not 'real Linux', what it comes down to is this: there's a certain peace, a sense of relief— of being respected— that comes with running Linux on your personal desktop or server. It feels really, really different from using an OS whose main function, which has driven its evolution, is just to sell you paid apps and services. That makes it fun, and it lends itself to a certain fluency. Might just be me, but I don't feel any respect coming from whoever are the devs that made this week's flavor of Linux I might be trying out. Yeah, Windows 10/11 and iOS, and to a slightly lesser extent MacOS and Android, all aim primarily to sell me their shit. I hate them all for that. I run an OS to run the shit I want on my computer, not the shit they want on their computer. Linux, though, aims to primarily sell me their ideological shit: FOSS, free as in freedom, GPL, Command Line Interface or bust. Instead of commercial pursuits, it's dogmatic pursuits. They're all the same sides of the same shit sandwich. I get to choose what's in the sandwich, but it's still a shit sandwich until the heat death of the universe. Fuck that noise. That all being said, Android is Linux. Because it runs the Linux kernel. End of. QED. Anyone who argues to the contrary is just being spiteful of Android succeeding where the wider Linux community could not.
squarefoot 4y ago
> Perhaps not "GNU" enough, but certainly the spirit of Linux -- customized for the particular needs, stable, fast, works on a plethora of hardware, etc. True, but you forget being transparent and giving users control, which are vital aspects of Linux that Android is light years away from offering and will never offer.
pjmlp 4y ago
Because Linux is not exposed to userspace. All you have access to are Java, Kotlin, ISO C, ISO C++, and NDK libraries. Nothing about Linux is public, other than APIs used by OEMs themselves. Since Android 8, even Linux kernel drivers are considered legacy and all new ones are required to be Treble based. All the LinuxSE, seccomp,...are also not exposed and can only be customised by OEMs. People like to pat themselves on the back regarding Android, however it could start using any other kernel and the apps sold on official stores would at most need to be recompiled.

not2b 4y ago

Yes, articles like this illustrate that RMS had a point, as annoying as he can be about it. Android is obviously Linux. What's missing is all of the things GNU and BSD brought to the party.

cma 4y ago
Try reading Linux man pages on things like system calls to map shared memory. On Android it won't work, and you have to call into Java code to do it. Google created a monster rather than work to get things merged into the kernel (there was some kind of possible resource leak or DoS with shared memory mapping).
pjmlp 4y ago
Linux kernel is an implementation detail on Android.

humanwhosits 4y ago

fuchsia (+starnix for legacy) might make android much less linux-y over the long term

kitsunesoba 4y ago

Vanilla Android or AOSP might kinda have “Linux Spirit” but I’m not sure what gets shipped on most consumer devices does… lots of random things locked down (including boot loader, sometimes), crapware all over the place, drivers and kernel changes that aren’t upstreamed making it difficult to install anything but carrier/manufacturer-flavored Android, etc. I think most people rooting for “smartphone Linux” are looking to be able to swap and customize OSes on their phones and tablets as easily as they do on their x86 PCs without futzing around with device specific ROMs and the like.

calvinmorrison 4y ago
My pixel broke (was running CalyxOS, lineage before that), and I had to get a quick burner phone to make work calls. Got a $200 dollar used samsung. I didn't realize what utter trash nonsense is loaded onto normal phones. It's absolutely bonkers what Samsung did to destroy Android with no value add.
- giantrobot 4y ago
  > It's absolutely bonkers what Samsung did to destroy Android with no value add. They added value, just not for end users.
- BossingAround 4y ago
  To be honest though, there's a huge difference between the Android experience on a $200 Samsung phone, and a $2000 one. I have a Galaxy S10, and the experience is fairly good (though I would prefer at least a vanilla Android).
zozbot234 4y ago
Even AOSP is running something quite far from a mainline kernel, although they've been gradually reducing the delta with Linux proper. It really is a fork.
- azinman2 4y ago
  But why is a fork still not Linux? Every major distributor runs a fork.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Because Linux kernel is an implementation detail in what Android userspace is concerned.
sleepymoose 4y ago
>including boot loader, sometimes Perhaps in the past, but it feels like more and more this is shifting toward the expectation, rather than the exception.

water-your-self 4y ago

The android operating system is not open soruce.

CharlesW 4y ago
https://source.android.com/docs/setup/start/licenses https://source.android.com/docs/setup/start/licenses
- blendergeek 4y ago
  That is the license for the Android Open Source Project. Unfortunately, Google has spent the last fifteen years moving many parts of the stack and almost (if not) all the core apps to Google Proprietary versions. Most apps in AOSP no longer receive updates at all. The dream is here is not just that we would be running "an open source stack" but that the active development would be on the open source stack. Sure, there are new releases of AOSP. But take a look at the core apps: Contacts, Calendar, Camera, Email, Location services. These are all proprietary now. Android is open source in the same sort of way that MacOS is open source. There are some open source bits in there.
  - colordrops 4y ago
    Who cares about the google user space apps? There are viable open source alternatives for all of them. It's like saying Linux is not open source because Redhat bundles proprietary software with their distro.
    - seba_dos1 4y ago
      This could have been a reasonable analogy if a very significant chunk of applications "for Linux" only worked (or offered its full functionality) if you had Red Hat's proprietary addons installed.
      - midoridensha 4y ago
        Many millions of people in China happily use Android smartphones every day without any Google apps at all.

lrvick 4y ago

Android is Linux but it has nowhere close to the fully open source freedom of a traditional Linux workstation. This is why I carry a tiny linux laptop.

CharlesW 4y ago
Phones are not PCs/general-purpose computers. Do you want your TV to be a general purpose computer as well? (Having put my family through a Media Center PC and TV remotes with keyboards/trackpads for several years, I don't recommend it.)
- fsflover 4y ago
  My Pinephone is a general-purpose computer, which runs a desktop OS and can be connected to a keyboard and screen. Same for Librem 5, which I preordered.
- cma 4y ago
  I run termux on mine and wish termux wasn't so restricted by google/android.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Maybe Termux can learn to code against Java APIs instead of forcing themselves through the Linux layer that is considered a private API on Android.
    - cma 4y ago
      Typically the Java APIs are restricted to the bare minimum Chrome Android needs to do sandboxing and native code-gen for V8. Shared memory only works in a more limited way with many less options. They'd really like to restrict these APIs way more and not allow apps any way of loading dynamic native code with the exec bit set, but can't because of Chrome and antitrust worries about just making Chrome system software with access to the APIs it needs that a competitor couldn't replicate in an APK. I think you can see some of their thinking with the removal of exec; they just want to undercut termux because that isn't needed for V8, but as long as loadable generated native code is still needed for Chrome, termux could potentially create their own ELF loader to replace exec).

nivenkos 4y ago

When I think of a Linux phone, I really want something that supports a full GNU/Linux desktop as convergence. The Steam Deck does this perfectly!

Teever 4y ago
Damn, you got me thinking now, that Valve of all people could probably put out a Linux phone. The Steam Phone could be a game changer.
- Bilal_io 4y ago
  I would buy a Steam Phone, and I'd want a big Valve logo on its back, and an easter egg that says "half-life 3 is not coming"
- nivenkos 4y ago
  Yeah, I think the main issue is getting support for WhatsApp and banking and ID services (that usually block even just rooted Android phones). I'm literally writing this comment from my Steam Deck.
- saidinesh5 4y ago
  You may actually be onto something here! Especially if the smaller steam deck clones like Aya neo Air Pro ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw-0ngNgGC0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw-0ngNgGC0 ) can support voice calls and a decent camera (the only other things my "mobile gamer" friends care about in a phone), I think there will be a niche market around it. Nokia N-Gage reborn! We already have decent enough android apps support on linux using anbox / waydroid. For the edge case android apps.
- hrbf 4y ago
  For a niche market, possibly. However, I just don't see Valve as a company being interested in becoming a phone manufacturer. What would realistically be in for them? It's strategically mostly irrelevant to their core business, with the sole exception of the Steam Store. But to create, develop and support a whole phone platform (hard- and software) just to sell mobile games? I don't see it.

notmyaccountt 4y ago

Google created an Android userspace that requires Google services to do anything meaningful. This violates everything Linux stands for.

colordrops 4y ago
Not great, agreed, but they did at least architect the OS so that they are decoupled and you can build without them very easily. In fact the largest custom ROM doesn't bundle with them by default (LineageOS). What do you need Google services for?
- GekkePrutser 4y ago
  LineageOS doesn't bundle Google Play by default because they're not allowed to, not because they don't want to. In fact they would like to because a majority of their users install it. But there's a lot of legal strings attached to it.
est31 4y ago
I think it's better to come up with replacements for those Google services and apps instead of rewriting the entire operating system. You need to solve the same problems on a linux smartphone as well, so Android gave you a lot of time savings, and I doubt the app sandboxing is even remotely as good on those non-Android linuxes. For Google Play for example there is F-droid, for push messages/FCM there is UnifiedPush, for Google Maps there is Osmand.
rrdharan 4y ago
Who decides what "Linux" stands for? Linus? RMS? "The community"?
- dannymi 4y ago
  Linux is a trademark owned by Linus Torvalds. So Linus decides.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  My personal objective take is if it runs a Linux kernel, it's Linux. Any other factor is subjective and does not matter. Legally though, Linus Torvalds gets to define what Linux is because he owns that name.

cma 4y ago

When mapping shared memory or checking for the right broadcast subnet requires calling into Java code... it isn't Linux on the user side so much anymore.

bhedgeoser 4y ago

What they're referring to as linux is actually gnu/linux, or as I like to call it, gnu+linux.

OJFord 4y ago

I suppose it depends what you mean/want by 'Linux'? In a nutshell I suppose I want systemd & config files.

seba_dos1 4y ago

So have you watched the talk? It's mentioned there and the talk describes pretty well why it's not what many people are looking for. You may want to watch it after all.

NotYourLawyer 4y ago

Android is not an acceptable Linux.

gsich 4y ago

You don't interact with Linux by using Android, it's Java. Android could also have been based on FreeBSD, wouldn't have made a difference for the user.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

pxc 4y ago

Yes, Android is absolutely not GNU enough. This terminological goofiness is the flipside of using the term 'Linux' to refer to a whole bunch of GNU/Linux operating systems. Here's the thing though, this is not even about abstract ideals. When we say Android is not 'real Linux', what it comes down to is this: there's a certain peace, a sense of relief— of being respected— that comes with running Linux on your personal desktop or server. It feels really, really different from using an OS whose main function, which has driven its evolution, is just to sell you paid apps and services. That makes it fun, and it lends itself to a certain fluency. Running any variety of Android is just an alien experience to all of that. Android doesn't feel good to use the way that Linux does for people who like running Linux on other contexts. And that's why it makes perfect sense to say it's 'not Linux enough'. The experience speaks powerfully enough for itself that it hardly seems worth explaining tbh. If you actually get what is good about running Linux and you've ever sought those virtues in Android, you already get it.

Dalewyn 4y ago
>When we say Android is not 'real Linux', what it comes down to is this: there's a certain peace, a sense of relief— of being respected— that comes with running Linux on your personal desktop or server. It feels really, really different from using an OS whose main function, which has driven its evolution, is just to sell you paid apps and services. That makes it fun, and it lends itself to a certain fluency. Might just be me, but I don't feel any respect coming from whoever are the devs that made this week's flavor of Linux I might be trying out. Yeah, Windows 10/11 and iOS, and to a slightly lesser extent MacOS and Android, all aim primarily to sell me their shit. I hate them all for that. I run an OS to run the shit I want on my computer, not the shit they want on their computer. Linux, though, aims to primarily sell me their ideological shit: FOSS, free as in freedom, GPL, Command Line Interface or bust. Instead of commercial pursuits, it's dogmatic pursuits. They're all the same sides of the same shit sandwich. I get to choose what's in the sandwich, but it's still a shit sandwich until the heat death of the universe. Fuck that noise. That all being said, Android is Linux. Because it runs the Linux kernel. End of. QED. Anyone who argues to the contrary is just being spiteful of Android succeeding where the wider Linux community could not.

squarefoot 4y ago

> Perhaps not "GNU" enough, but certainly the spirit of Linux -- customized for the particular needs, stable, fast, works on a plethora of hardware, etc. True, but you forget being transparent and giving users control, which are vital aspects of Linux that Android is light years away from offering and will never offer.

pjmlp 4y ago

Because Linux is not exposed to userspace. All you have access to are Java, Kotlin, ISO C, ISO C++, and NDK libraries. Nothing about Linux is public, other than APIs used by OEMs themselves. Since Android 8, even Linux kernel drivers are considered legacy and all new ones are required to be Treble based. All the LinuxSE, seccomp,...are also not exposed and can only be customised by OEMs. People like to pat themselves on the back regarding Android, however it could start using any other kernel and the apps sold on official stores would at most need to be recompiled.