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> There are no pitchforks. There is no angry mob. This is true. Even Snowden's revelations didn't have much effect outside of tech circles. US congress even

> There are no pitchforks. There is no angry mob. This is true. Even Snowden's revelations didn't have much effect outside of tech circles. US congress even got away with passing a law to retroactively make some of the revealed illegal spying on Americans legal. The public either does not care or feels impotent. Governments love corporate surveillance as it allows them a source of data without having to worry about scrutiny they might face by collecting the data directly. It feels hopeless that surveillance capitalism will ever be able to be reigned in.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> Snowden's revelations didn't have much effect outside of tech circles This is not true. There were lasting changes in public perceptions around the surveillance of Americans [1]. And bulk collection under the Patriot Act was repealed [2]. That is far from complete, but it's also far from nothing. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/06/04/how-americans-have-viewed-government-surveillance-and-privacy-since-snowden-leaks/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/06/04/how-america... [2] https://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-praises-end-to-nsa-phone-records-dragnet-calls-for-passage-of-surveillance-reform-bill https://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-prais...
- sillystuff 4y ago
  Congress retroactively legalized some of the spying: https://sgp.fas.org/crs/intel/RL34600.pdf https://sgp.fas.org/crs/intel/RL34600.pdf [PDF] The reforms to bulk data collection were immediately after the revelations. Congress has been continuing/expanding surveillance in the years since. But, perhaps not to the degree they would have without Snowden's revelations? I want to believe that Snowden's great sacrifice made lasting changes, but I don't think the evidence supports it. E.g., > Congress extends patriot act section 702 spying powers (2018) https://www.zdnet.com/article/congress-demanded-nsa-spying-reform-instead-they-let-you-down/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/congress-demanded-nsa-spying-r... > Congress extends patriot act section 215 spying powers (2019) https://www.aclu.org/news/national-security/congress-just-temporarily-extended-the-governments-spying-powers https://www.aclu.org/news/national-security/congress-just-te... > With practically no public notice and no public hearings, the House of Representatives passed the College Transparency Act (CTA) on Feb. 4, 2022, by slipping it into a much larger unrelated bill called the America Competes Act, intended to better position the United States to compete with China. (2022) > creation of a comprehensive data system that would include the personal information of every student enrolled in college or another higher education institution, and track them after their [sic] graduate. https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/04/04/congress-student-data-collect-privacy/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/04/04/congress...
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > Congress retroactively legalized some of the spying Extensions of §§ 702 and 215 didn't roll back the reforms in the USA Freedom Act [1], which was a hodgepodge of intelligence reauthorizations and admittedly minor reforms. (But reforms nonetheless.) > House of Representatives passed the College Transparency Act (CTA) on Feb. 4, 2022, by slipping it into a much larger unrelated bill called the America Competes Act Anyone claiming CTA was slipped into the ACA wasn't watching the ball. I first heard about it around 2021 [2], which was itself a re-introduction of an earlier bill. It went through discussions across two administrations. The only opposition was from higher ed, who didn't want the record keeping burden. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Freedom_Act#Title_VI:_FISA_Transparency_and_Reporting_Requirement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Freedom_Act#Title_VI:_FISA... [2] https://www.cassidy.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/cassidy-warren-scott-whitehouse-reintroduce-college-transparency-act https://www.cassidy.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/cassi...
    - sillystuff 4y ago
      > The only opposition was from higher ed, who didn't want the record keeping burden. That kinda makes my point. I appreciate that from your perspective I am being far too pessimistic. But, I do not see reason for optimism. Still, I hope it turns out that you are right.
zeruch 4y ago
"It feels hopeless that surveillance capitalism will ever be able to be reigned in. " It will likely by some combination of: 1. starts to impact the 1% (e.g. Congresswoman Feinstein didn't care about privacy a whole lot until she found out the NSA may have been bugging HER, etc) 2. an active interest in counter-measures (up to and including not buying or dismantling IoT options; people are already on forums in growing numbers looking for 'dumb' appliances and looking to hoard car parts to keep the ICE cars rolling indefinitely if possible) 3. a second Cambridge Analytical with any measurable, discrete, bad outcomes that follow (e.g. someone uses breach data to stalk a person, a group of shareholders get fleeced [aka see 1]) There is no silver bullet here in my view. A confluence of events will at some point likely hit critical mass and force it. Almost no one thought data sovereignty regulation would take off, but GDPR, CCPA, and a growing list of similars have proven that was a misstep on the part of tech to avoid a balkanized regulatory universe, but they simply could not agree to give up on iota of adtech dollars....so they will lose it by endless smaller cuts. The legal/compliance industry will reap those profits instead.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> Snowden's revelations didn't have much effect outside of tech circles This is not true. There were lasting changes in public perceptions around the surveillance of Americans [1]. And bulk collection under the Patriot Act was repealed [2]. That is far from complete, but it's also far from nothing. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/06/04/how-americans-have-viewed-government-surveillance-and-privacy-since-snowden-leaks/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/06/04/how-america... [2] https://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-praises-end-to-nsa-phone-records-dragnet-calls-for-passage-of-surveillance-reform-bill https://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-prais...

sillystuff 4y ago
Congress retroactively legalized some of the spying: https://sgp.fas.org/crs/intel/RL34600.pdf https://sgp.fas.org/crs/intel/RL34600.pdf [PDF] The reforms to bulk data collection were immediately after the revelations. Congress has been continuing/expanding surveillance in the years since. But, perhaps not to the degree they would have without Snowden's revelations? I want to believe that Snowden's great sacrifice made lasting changes, but I don't think the evidence supports it. E.g., > Congress extends patriot act section 702 spying powers (2018) https://www.zdnet.com/article/congress-demanded-nsa-spying-reform-instead-they-let-you-down/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/congress-demanded-nsa-spying-r... > Congress extends patriot act section 215 spying powers (2019) https://www.aclu.org/news/national-security/congress-just-temporarily-extended-the-governments-spying-powers https://www.aclu.org/news/national-security/congress-just-te... > With practically no public notice and no public hearings, the House of Representatives passed the College Transparency Act (CTA) on Feb. 4, 2022, by slipping it into a much larger unrelated bill called the America Competes Act, intended to better position the United States to compete with China. (2022) > creation of a comprehensive data system that would include the personal information of every student enrolled in college or another higher education institution, and track them after their [sic] graduate. https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/04/04/congress-student-data-collect-privacy/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/04/04/congress...
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > Congress retroactively legalized some of the spying Extensions of §§ 702 and 215 didn't roll back the reforms in the USA Freedom Act [1], which was a hodgepodge of intelligence reauthorizations and admittedly minor reforms. (But reforms nonetheless.) > House of Representatives passed the College Transparency Act (CTA) on Feb. 4, 2022, by slipping it into a much larger unrelated bill called the America Competes Act Anyone claiming CTA was slipped into the ACA wasn't watching the ball. I first heard about it around 2021 [2], which was itself a re-introduction of an earlier bill. It went through discussions across two administrations. The only opposition was from higher ed, who didn't want the record keeping burden. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Freedom_Act#Title_VI:_FISA_Transparency_and_Reporting_Requirement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Freedom_Act#Title_VI:_FISA... [2] https://www.cassidy.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/cassidy-warren-scott-whitehouse-reintroduce-college-transparency-act https://www.cassidy.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/cassi...
  - sillystuff 4y ago
    > The only opposition was from higher ed, who didn't want the record keeping burden. That kinda makes my point. I appreciate that from your perspective I am being far too pessimistic. But, I do not see reason for optimism. Still, I hope it turns out that you are right.

zeruch 4y ago

"It feels hopeless that surveillance capitalism will ever be able to be reigned in. " It will likely by some combination of: 1. starts to impact the 1% (e.g. Congresswoman Feinstein didn't care about privacy a whole lot until she found out the NSA may have been bugging HER, etc) 2. an active interest in counter-measures (up to and including not buying or dismantling IoT options; people are already on forums in growing numbers looking for 'dumb' appliances and looking to hoard car parts to keep the ICE cars rolling indefinitely if possible) 3. a second Cambridge Analytical with any measurable, discrete, bad outcomes that follow (e.g. someone uses breach data to stalk a person, a group of shareholders get fleeced [aka see 1]) There is no silver bullet here in my view. A confluence of events will at some point likely hit critical mass and force it. Almost no one thought data sovereignty regulation would take off, but GDPR, CCPA, and a growing list of similars have proven that was a misstep on the part of tech to avoid a balkanized regulatory universe, but they simply could not agree to give up on iota of adtech dollars....so they will lose it by endless smaller cuts. The legal/compliance industry will reap those profits instead.