4 ms·

No, we’re addicts to novelty. I’ve met very very few scientists who do it for social good. Maybe for some abstract notion of progress. Think about what motivate

by gaze 4y ago

No, we’re addicts to novelty. I’ve met very very few scientists who do it for social good. Maybe for some abstract notion of progress. Think about what motivated the physicists behind the manhattan project. Was it for the good of the country? Was it to be a part or something “important?” Was it out of self-importance? Was the Manhattan project seen as a source of income to work on fun problems and have creative freedom?

protomolecule 4y ago
The need to make the atomic bomb before Germany does.
abetusk 4y ago
You might want to update your narrative about that. Leo Szilard created a petition to try and convince Japan to surrender instead of using nuclear weapons on them [0]. This was signed by 70 scientists but never made it up the chain of command, presumably for political reasons. Before then, there was the Franck report, signed by 7 scientists, that tried to similarly avert the use of nuclear weapons [1]. Einstein was Jewish and fled Germany because of the Nazis rise to power. Einstein was acutely aware of the dangers a nuclear weapon would impose and was the reason why he wrote a letter to then Franklin Roosevelt recommending the development of a nuclear weapon [2]. Though Einstein didn't work on the Manhattan project directly, I would be surprised if many other scientists in a similar situation didn't feel the same. Many scientists either fled Europe because of the war or were Jewish. My model of most scientists working on the Manhattan project was one of need and duty, if not to the US then to quell the threat of a world ruled by fascists, tempered by the understanding that the project they were working on could have negative world consequences. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szil%C3%A1rd_petition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szil%C3%A1rd_petition [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franck_Report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franck_Report [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein%E2%80%93Szilard_letter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein%E2%80%93Szilard_lette...
- causi 4y ago
  Leo Szilard created a petition to try and convince Japan to surrender instead of using nuclear weapons on them I believe there were many attempts to convince Japan to surrender before using nuclear weapons on them. For example, the LeMay leaflets dropped before the bombing of Hiroshima: Read this carefully as it may save your life or the life of a relative or friend. In the next few days, some or all of the cities named on the reverse side will be destroyed by American bombs. These cities contain military installations and workshops or factories which produce military goods. We are determined to destroy all of the tools of the military clique which they are using to prolong this useless war. But, unfortunately, bombs have no eyes. So, in accordance with America's humanitarian policies, the American Air Force, which does not wish to injure innocent people, now gives you warning to evacuate the cities named and save your lives. America is not fighting the Japanese people but is fighting the military clique which has enslaved the Japanese people. The peace which America will bring will free the people from the oppression of the military clique and mean the emergence of a new and better Japan. You can restore peace by demanding new and good leaders who will end the war. We cannot promise that only these cities will be among those attacked but some or all of them will be, so heed this warning and evacuate these cities immediately. Then the second set of leaflets dropped before the bombing of Nagasaki: TO THE JAPANESE PEOPLE: America asks that you take immediate heed of what we say on this leaflet. We are in possession of the most destructive explosive ever devised by man. A single one of our newly developed atomic bombs is actually the equivalent in explosive power to what 2000 of our giant B-29s can carry on a single mission. This awful fact is one for you to ponder and we solemnly assure you it is grimly accurate. We have just begun to use this weapon against your homeland. If you still have any doubt, make inquiry as to what happened to Hiroshima when just one atomic bomb fell on that city. Before using this bomb to destroy every resource of the military by which they are prolonging this useless war, we ask that you now petition the Emperor to end the war. Our president has outlined for you the thirteen consequences of an honorable surrender. We urge that you accept these consequences and begin the work of building a new, better and peace-loving Japan. You should take steps now to cease military resistance. Otherwise, we shall resolutely employ this bomb and all our other superior weapons to promptly and forcefully end the war.
- melony 4y ago
  It's easy for them to paint a rosy picture when they are all high-profile tenured scientists without a worry career wise. Bad sampling. It is as good as asking Jeff Bezos's opinion about the benefits of a warehouse job. Bill Gates is not a ethical businessman just because his post-Microsoft career whitewashed his legacy.
- badpun 4y ago
  Writing petitions is not that great of a sacrifice and strong proof of moral character...
- godelski 4y ago
  I think a problem we face is that people judge based on simplistic models. We see some comments saying that a petition is worthless. But if that petition succeeded many would have the opposite position. You can't judge purely on the outcomes. The scientists did not control the use of the weapons. These matters are extremely complicated. Simplifying it to good vs evil is in reality dehumanizing. People claim they are criticizing, but it is just pessimism. The world is not simple and often there are no good answers. No one will ever be good enough to be a saint because they are human and all humans are flawed. This makes it easier to bin them in the evil category. Pessimism is thus the easier perspective, but this is destructive. We humans are not the product of singular actions. It is important to remember that you can not condone certain actions but condone others. Scientists, just like any other group, is a non-homogeneous group of individuals. Painting with a wide brush is what we do to propagandize, not how we create a better world.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

by gaze 4y ago

protomolecule 4y ago

The need to make the atomic bomb before Germany does.

abetusk 4y ago

You might want to update your narrative about that. Leo Szilard created a petition to try and convince Japan to surrender instead of using nuclear weapons on them [0]. This was signed by 70 scientists but never made it up the chain of command, presumably for political reasons. Before then, there was the Franck report, signed by 7 scientists, that tried to similarly avert the use of nuclear weapons [1]. Einstein was Jewish and fled Germany because of the Nazis rise to power. Einstein was acutely aware of the dangers a nuclear weapon would impose and was the reason why he wrote a letter to then Franklin Roosevelt recommending the development of a nuclear weapon [2]. Though Einstein didn't work on the Manhattan project directly, I would be surprised if many other scientists in a similar situation didn't feel the same. Many scientists either fled Europe because of the war or were Jewish. My model of most scientists working on the Manhattan project was one of need and duty, if not to the US then to quell the threat of a world ruled by fascists, tempered by the understanding that the project they were working on could have negative world consequences. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szil%C3%A1rd_petition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szil%C3%A1rd_petition [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franck_Report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franck_Report [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein%E2%80%93Szilard_letter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein%E2%80%93Szilard_lette...

causi 4y ago
Leo Szilard created a petition to try and convince Japan to surrender instead of using nuclear weapons on them I believe there were many attempts to convince Japan to surrender before using nuclear weapons on them. For example, the LeMay leaflets dropped before the bombing of Hiroshima: Read this carefully as it may save your life or the life of a relative or friend. In the next few days, some or all of the cities named on the reverse side will be destroyed by American bombs. These cities contain military installations and workshops or factories which produce military goods. We are determined to destroy all of the tools of the military clique which they are using to prolong this useless war. But, unfortunately, bombs have no eyes. So, in accordance with America's humanitarian policies, the American Air Force, which does not wish to injure innocent people, now gives you warning to evacuate the cities named and save your lives. America is not fighting the Japanese people but is fighting the military clique which has enslaved the Japanese people. The peace which America will bring will free the people from the oppression of the military clique and mean the emergence of a new and better Japan. You can restore peace by demanding new and good leaders who will end the war. We cannot promise that only these cities will be among those attacked but some or all of them will be, so heed this warning and evacuate these cities immediately. Then the second set of leaflets dropped before the bombing of Nagasaki: TO THE JAPANESE PEOPLE: America asks that you take immediate heed of what we say on this leaflet. We are in possession of the most destructive explosive ever devised by man. A single one of our newly developed atomic bombs is actually the equivalent in explosive power to what 2000 of our giant B-29s can carry on a single mission. This awful fact is one for you to ponder and we solemnly assure you it is grimly accurate. We have just begun to use this weapon against your homeland. If you still have any doubt, make inquiry as to what happened to Hiroshima when just one atomic bomb fell on that city. Before using this bomb to destroy every resource of the military by which they are prolonging this useless war, we ask that you now petition the Emperor to end the war. Our president has outlined for you the thirteen consequences of an honorable surrender. We urge that you accept these consequences and begin the work of building a new, better and peace-loving Japan. You should take steps now to cease military resistance. Otherwise, we shall resolutely employ this bomb and all our other superior weapons to promptly and forcefully end the war.
melony 4y ago
It's easy for them to paint a rosy picture when they are all high-profile tenured scientists without a worry career wise. Bad sampling. It is as good as asking Jeff Bezos's opinion about the benefits of a warehouse job. Bill Gates is not a ethical businessman just because his post-Microsoft career whitewashed his legacy.
badpun 4y ago
Writing petitions is not that great of a sacrifice and strong proof of moral character...
godelski 4y ago
I think a problem we face is that people judge based on simplistic models. We see some comments saying that a petition is worthless. But if that petition succeeded many would have the opposite position. You can't judge purely on the outcomes. The scientists did not control the use of the weapons. These matters are extremely complicated. Simplifying it to good vs evil is in reality dehumanizing. People claim they are criticizing, but it is just pessimism. The world is not simple and often there are no good answers. No one will ever be good enough to be a saint because they are human and all humans are flawed. This makes it easier to bin them in the evil category. Pessimism is thus the easier perspective, but this is destructive. We humans are not the product of singular actions. It is important to remember that you can not condone certain actions but condone others. Scientists, just like any other group, is a non-homogeneous group of individuals. Painting with a wide brush is what we do to propagandize, not how we create a better world.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]