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Raspberry Pi has a distinctively different target audience. If you expect an RPi to run non-ARM code, then I'd say it's not made for you. I agree that M1/M2 Ma

Raspberry Pi has a distinctively different target audience. If you expect an RPi to run non-ARM code, then I'd say it's not made for you. I agree that M1/M2 Macs are good, but I implore everyone to not get sucked into and stuck into the Apple ecosystem. Nothing good can come out of tech dominance.

tomxor 4y ago
> I agree that M1/M2 Macs are good, but I implore everyone to not get sucked into and stuck into the Apple ecosystem. So much this. Every time I hear something good about the M1/M2 it's interesting but it's like "aah, such a shame I can never use it without loosing my sanity due to all of the strings it has attached".
- entropicdrifter 4y ago
  I bought an M1 Mac Mini on sale earlier this year when Microcenter had them under $600, now it just runs Asahi Linux. Eventually I'm going to move all of my self-hosted server stuff over to it, minus Jellyfin and whatever else needs hardware transcoding capability.
  - tomxor 4y ago
    I'm happy for you, and that would also be pragmatic for me being a Linux user, but my annoying idealistic conscience refuses to fund Apple's activities.
    - DrudgeCorporate 4y ago
      They're saying it was pretty much pointless to buy the Mac mini as they don't use it with Mac OS and the Apple ecosystem
      - tomxor 4y ago
        Hmm, i was reading it as the opposite, (that they found it useful specifically because they were able to avoid Mac OS and the Apple ecosystem). Context: There are some Linux users who want to use the hardware (so they can enjoy the M1/2 whatever) so there are efforts to get it running as a Linux machine (Asahi Linux), which would certainly keep me far more sane - but I still abhor giving money to Apple for the hardware (even 2nd hand which supports resale value and thus retail value)... I also don't trust that they wont simply pull the rug on such efforts in future by doing some kind of over the wire firmware update to brick those machines. Why do business with people who don't like you, it's just going to be a constant fight.
        entropicdrifter 4y ago
        That is what I meant. The other person misread it. My point is that I got a far more efficient home server machine to run Linux on. The Mini as I have it sips power like my Raspberry Pis while having the computational grunt to be far more useful
      - entropicdrifter 4y ago
        That was not what I was saying at all. It's got a fantastic power to performance ratio without being locked into Apple's walled garden.
- sillystuff 4y ago
  If you just run Linux / *BSD on the hardware, what are the strings you are referring to? Every time an article comes up reminding me of how great the M1/M2 laptops are, I think about maybe getting a used one in a few years to run Debian on, but the soldered on SSD worries me (especially since early Apple software issues burned through erase cycles).
  - tomxor 4y ago
    Running Linux or BSD would be the only possible way for me. But beyond this Apple are the strings for me, as I've mentioned in sibling responses I do not wish to fund the company in any way. 2nd hand unfortunately also funds them indirectly by supporting retail prices through resale value.
iakov 4y ago
The Apple ecosystem is the best consumer tech that exists right now. Things just work, and they all work together. Beautiful!
akmittal 4y ago
I am hopeful that Qualcomms overtake of Nuvia should help ARM achieve true potential for non apple users. Although they keep on disappointing. They claimed to have M1 performance in 2022, now they have postponed to late 2023. Matching M1 performance in late 2023 won't be that great
- karamanolev 4y ago
  I feel like Qualcomm is bloated as a company and also overly corporate/restrictive. I understand they have IP to protect, but other companies have shown it can be done at scale with a much more open mindset. If Qualcomm ends up winning using some kind of proprietary tech, it wouldn't be a big win for everyone. Another Apple, in a way.
  - akmittal 4y ago
    > Qualcomm ends up winning using some kind of proprietary tech, it wouldn't be a big win for everyone Those processors will be able to run Windows and linux. More efficiency for non apple ecosystem. I consider that win for everyone
    - astrange 4y ago
      Mx can run Linux, and can run Windows in a VM. It could run Windows bare metal if Microsoft wanted it to. Actually, I'm not sure why Apple would be the "supporting tech dominance" choice here as opposed to Intel.
      - karamanolev 4y ago
        Because they're a more closed ecosystem that encompasses much more of the stack. Intel is a small part of the whole stack and they have a proper competitor. Smaller slice of the stack + more competition = less tech dominance. The fact that M1/M2 can run something is almost irrelevant. It can because Apple allows you to run it and can stop that at any moment. It wouldn't be the first time they would decide something like that out of the blue.
dmitriid 4y ago
For tech dominance not to occur other players need to get their heads out of their collective asses and offer something competitive. Yes, I shouldn't expect Raspberry to run non-ARM software... but why exactly shouldn't I? Where are the trillion-upon-trillion-dollar players like Google, Samsung and others with their Rosetta-like translation layers? And Qualcomm with competitive CPUs?
- giobox 4y ago
  This is frankly a ludicrous ask of a 35 dollar hobbyist single board education computer with an old CPU. I hate the dreaded car analogies too, but this is akin to buying a cheap Toyota saloon and expecting it to accelerate like a Ferrari. For what its worth, there are some rosetta like options on RPi - you can run x86 containers in QEMU, for example. Its just again you've bought a 35 dollar computer - its not going to be fast enough to be performant for most tasks when translating (in real time!) software written for a completely different CPU architecture. > https://gist.github.com/Sitin/bfa5e770b80ab4b8740c88e648666c74 https://gist.github.com/Sitin/bfa5e770b80ab4b8740c88e648666c...
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    > This is frankly a ludicrous ask of a 35 dollar hobbyist single board education computer with an old CPU. Linux is being developed mostly by trillion-dollar corporations. Intel. Google. Samsung. etc. ARM chips are designed and produced by Samsung, Qualcomm etc. You'd think they would: - come up with a competitive chip, and - Rosetta-like software that even "$35 dollar hobbyist computer" would be able to do this with, quote "powerful 64-bit CPU". Alas. And no, I'm not buying the whole "you shouldn't expect". Because, as it turns out, I can't expect this from any computer, be it hobbyist, educational, family, gamer, professional, or whatever adjectives you can put in front of it. Except Apple.
    - colejohnson66 4y ago
      That $35 SBC is running a CPU that costs a comparatively lower amount to produce than an M1. Putting 20 billion transistors on a single die reliably at 5nm is extremely more costly than a billion or so at 28nm (the BCM2711). If you want Broadcom to release a CPU that's on par with the M1, half of your Pi's circuit board will be just the CPU die's BGA pins. Intel's (and others') price gouging and market segmentation does not in any way imply that it's possible to manufacture an i7/i9/R7/R9/M1 at $20 a piece.
nomel 4y ago
> Nothing good can come out of tech dominance. The dance between hardware, software, and devices, and its consistency, is a measurable good. To me, this is the "magic sauce" of Apple that makes them successful. But, to agree with your point, my general rule is: Apple hardware, with third party services (besides iCloud). And, a PC or console for gaming. :)

tomxor 4y ago

> I agree that M1/M2 Macs are good, but I implore everyone to not get sucked into and stuck into the Apple ecosystem. So much this. Every time I hear something good about the M1/M2 it's interesting but it's like "aah, such a shame I can never use it without loosing my sanity due to all of the strings it has attached".

entropicdrifter 4y ago
I bought an M1 Mac Mini on sale earlier this year when Microcenter had them under $600, now it just runs Asahi Linux. Eventually I'm going to move all of my self-hosted server stuff over to it, minus Jellyfin and whatever else needs hardware transcoding capability.
- tomxor 4y ago
  I'm happy for you, and that would also be pragmatic for me being a Linux user, but my annoying idealistic conscience refuses to fund Apple's activities.
  - DrudgeCorporate 4y ago
    They're saying it was pretty much pointless to buy the Mac mini as they don't use it with Mac OS and the Apple ecosystem
    - tomxor 4y ago
      Hmm, i was reading it as the opposite, (that they found it useful specifically because they were able to avoid Mac OS and the Apple ecosystem). Context: There are some Linux users who want to use the hardware (so they can enjoy the M1/2 whatever) so there are efforts to get it running as a Linux machine (Asahi Linux), which would certainly keep me far more sane - but I still abhor giving money to Apple for the hardware (even 2nd hand which supports resale value and thus retail value)... I also don't trust that they wont simply pull the rug on such efforts in future by doing some kind of over the wire firmware update to brick those machines. Why do business with people who don't like you, it's just going to be a constant fight.
      - entropicdrifter 4y ago
        That is what I meant. The other person misread it. My point is that I got a far more efficient home server machine to run Linux on. The Mini as I have it sips power like my Raspberry Pis while having the computational grunt to be far more useful
    - entropicdrifter 4y ago
      That was not what I was saying at all. It's got a fantastic power to performance ratio without being locked into Apple's walled garden.
sillystuff 4y ago
If you just run Linux / *BSD on the hardware, what are the strings you are referring to? Every time an article comes up reminding me of how great the M1/M2 laptops are, I think about maybe getting a used one in a few years to run Debian on, but the soldered on SSD worries me (especially since early Apple software issues burned through erase cycles).
- tomxor 4y ago
  Running Linux or BSD would be the only possible way for me. But beyond this Apple are the strings for me, as I've mentioned in sibling responses I do not wish to fund the company in any way. 2nd hand unfortunately also funds them indirectly by supporting retail prices through resale value.

iakov 4y ago

The Apple ecosystem is the best consumer tech that exists right now. Things just work, and they all work together. Beautiful!

akmittal 4y ago

I am hopeful that Qualcomms overtake of Nuvia should help ARM achieve true potential for non apple users. Although they keep on disappointing. They claimed to have M1 performance in 2022, now they have postponed to late 2023. Matching M1 performance in late 2023 won't be that great

karamanolev 4y ago
I feel like Qualcomm is bloated as a company and also overly corporate/restrictive. I understand they have IP to protect, but other companies have shown it can be done at scale with a much more open mindset. If Qualcomm ends up winning using some kind of proprietary tech, it wouldn't be a big win for everyone. Another Apple, in a way.
- akmittal 4y ago
  > Qualcomm ends up winning using some kind of proprietary tech, it wouldn't be a big win for everyone Those processors will be able to run Windows and linux. More efficiency for non apple ecosystem. I consider that win for everyone
  - astrange 4y ago
    Mx can run Linux, and can run Windows in a VM. It could run Windows bare metal if Microsoft wanted it to. Actually, I'm not sure why Apple would be the "supporting tech dominance" choice here as opposed to Intel.
    - karamanolev 4y ago
      Because they're a more closed ecosystem that encompasses much more of the stack. Intel is a small part of the whole stack and they have a proper competitor. Smaller slice of the stack + more competition = less tech dominance. The fact that M1/M2 can run something is almost irrelevant. It can because Apple allows you to run it and can stop that at any moment. It wouldn't be the first time they would decide something like that out of the blue.

dmitriid 4y ago

For tech dominance not to occur other players need to get their heads out of their collective asses and offer something competitive. Yes, I shouldn't expect Raspberry to run non-ARM software... but why exactly shouldn't I? Where are the trillion-upon-trillion-dollar players like Google, Samsung and others with their Rosetta-like translation layers? And Qualcomm with competitive CPUs?

giobox 4y ago
This is frankly a ludicrous ask of a 35 dollar hobbyist single board education computer with an old CPU. I hate the dreaded car analogies too, but this is akin to buying a cheap Toyota saloon and expecting it to accelerate like a Ferrari. For what its worth, there are some rosetta like options on RPi - you can run x86 containers in QEMU, for example. Its just again you've bought a 35 dollar computer - its not going to be fast enough to be performant for most tasks when translating (in real time!) software written for a completely different CPU architecture. > https://gist.github.com/Sitin/bfa5e770b80ab4b8740c88e648666c74 https://gist.github.com/Sitin/bfa5e770b80ab4b8740c88e648666c...
- dmitriid 4y ago
  > This is frankly a ludicrous ask of a 35 dollar hobbyist single board education computer with an old CPU. Linux is being developed mostly by trillion-dollar corporations. Intel. Google. Samsung. etc. ARM chips are designed and produced by Samsung, Qualcomm etc. You'd think they would: - come up with a competitive chip, and - Rosetta-like software that even "$35 dollar hobbyist computer" would be able to do this with, quote "powerful 64-bit CPU". Alas. And no, I'm not buying the whole "you shouldn't expect". Because, as it turns out, I can't expect this from any computer, be it hobbyist, educational, family, gamer, professional, or whatever adjectives you can put in front of it. Except Apple.
  - colejohnson66 4y ago
    That $35 SBC is running a CPU that costs a comparatively lower amount to produce than an M1. Putting 20 billion transistors on a single die reliably at 5nm is extremely more costly than a billion or so at 28nm (the BCM2711). If you want Broadcom to release a CPU that's on par with the M1, half of your Pi's circuit board will be just the CPU die's BGA pins. Intel's (and others') price gouging and market segmentation does not in any way imply that it's possible to manufacture an i7/i9/R7/R9/M1 at $20 a piece.

nomel 4y ago

> Nothing good can come out of tech dominance. The dance between hardware, software, and devices, and its consistency, is a measurable good. To me, this is the "magic sauce" of Apple that makes them successful. But, to agree with your point, my general rule is: Apple hardware, with third party services (besides iCloud). And, a PC or console for gaming. :)