7 ms·

"From Norway, even Sweden now looks gritty and hardscrabble, like something out of a Stieg Larsson novel." Now, this is a case of national pride of course, but

by Zirro 15y ago

"From Norway, even Sweden now looks gritty and hardscrabble, like something out of a Stieg Larsson novel." Now, this is a case of national pride of course, but it really sounds like the author has heard just one side of a story here. My impression is that Sweden and Norway (like the other Scandinavian countries) are about equal in most aspects. That's not wrong, is it?

Rastafarian 15y ago
I'd say it's wrong. There are more than 200K Swedes currently residing and working in Norway. Not only young people working no-skill jobs for $140 a day, but also many scientists, IT pros/developers, managers, entrepreneurs. I've lived and worked in both countries and while Sweden feels like one of the rich US states or parts of EU, Norway has out of this world standard of living. Can give you countless examples. A neighbour of mine was a single father of three children, the government (NAV) was paying his rent, bills, other expenses, vacation(!), etc. for almost a year. That was social help not based on previous taxes or income. Most Norwegians (IMH experience) who are serious about gaming would work one year and live the next year on the extremely generous unemployment benefits provided by NAV.
- vetler 15y ago
  200K swedes? Do you have a reference for that number? I've heard lower numbers. Here's an article (in Norwegian) from 2009 saying it's just under 80 000: http://www.hegnar.no/personlig_okonomi/article391433.ece http://www.hegnar.no/personlig_okonomi/article391433.ece
  - anghyflawn 15y ago
    Yep, 200K sounds a bit too many: Statistics Norway shows under 70K Scandinavians (not just Swedes) as of 01/01/11 http://ssb.no/emner/02/01/10/innvbef/tab-2011-04-28-08.html http://ssb.no/emner/02/01/10/innvbef/tab-2011-04-28-08.html You probably have to add some commuters, but they will hardly change the big picture.
    - swah 15y ago
      What do you mean when you say "scandinavians in Norway"? If "Scandinavia is a region that includes the three kingdoms of Denmark, Norway and Sweden" that doesn't make sense...
      - anghyflawn 15y ago
        This is Statistics Norway's overview of immigrants by country of origin. So this means that people from Scandinavian, or rather Nordic, countries other than Norway (i.e. Denmark incl. the Faroes and Greenland, Sweden, Finland and Iceland). I can't find a more detailed breakdown right now.
  - Rastafarian 15y ago
    Yeah, numbers got messed in my little brain. It's 200K Pakistanis and 80K Swedes.
geon 15y ago
Right. (Swede here) Norway and Sweden are virtually identical as far as I can tell. Though I haven't lived there, I work with norwegians and visit a few times a year since 2008. Standard of living might be a bit higher, but not drastically. Naturally, Salaries are a lot lower in Sweden, but so are the prices. Food prices in Norway are often double, rarely less than 150%. One interesting detail is infrastructure. Due to all the mountains and fjords, building highways in Norway is super expensive. Lots of tunnels. Smaller roads tend to follow the natural, winding shape of the land, making them slow and long.
- danteembermage 15y ago
  From the GDP per capita adjusted by PPP you're right, there's not that huge a difference betweeen them (52k vs. 38k): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_... Whereas the nominal GDP per capita is huge (84k vs. 49k in Sweden and 47k in the US) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomin... So yes, $84,000 is nice, but it's much much nicer in Sweden than in Norway in terms of what you can buy with it
- mbesto 15y ago
  I've got tons of Swedish friends, some of who live in Oslo. They basically say that you can speak Swedish in Oslo nowadays because of how many Swedes have immigrated there. Why? Because there are better jobs and they pay more.
  - krig 15y ago
    The same is true in every major scandinavian country. I think it's a case of several factors conspiring: 1. There are more swedes in scandinavia than there are any other nationality. 2. Young people move to the cities to find work. 3. Youth unemployment rates are high across scandinavia. 4. Ease of mobility across the scandinavian cultures. Olso in particular is close to sweden, and swedes understand norwegian with very little effort (and vice versa). Thus, you have young swedes moving into all of the larger cities in scandinavia, including Stockholm, Malmö and Gothenburg.
lobster_johnson 15y ago
Whereas Norway was able to build its wealth on oil, Sweden -- having only a tiny, tiny bit of oil -- had to build their country the hard way, with industry and commerce. And they are very, very good at it. As a result, Sweden seems comparatively more active, in terms of industry and business in general. They have a lively entrepreneurial spirit, and a lively Internet startup scene. Norway is still lagging in this area, perhaps as a result of having become docile by not having to fight for its economy. In terms of living standards, Norway and Sweden are on the same level, and at roughly the same gini index. Sweden's GDP is about 30% higher, but Norway's is 45% higher per capita.
- _delirium 15y ago
  While it's true that Sweden doesn't have oil, it does have considerable natural resources: mining, forestry, and hydroelectric-power account for about 30% of its exports (about 350 billion SEK = US $50 billion). It's the 2nd-largest producer of wood and paper products after Canada, I believe, and mining's traditionally been a huge part of the economy, though it's less important now than it was some decades ago.
  - lobster_johnson 15y ago
    Absolutely. But if you look at exports, you will also see that Sweden produces a huge amount of stuff. Chemicals, machinery, transport, cars, telecomms etc. Its exports in those areas are almost the size of Norway's petro business. Norway has comparatively little manufacturing.
    - varjag 15y ago
      "GDP by activity (2010): Oil and gas 22%; general government 16%; manufacturing, mining, electricity, building and construction 15%; value added tax (VAT), etc. 11%; commodities, vehicle repairs, etc. 7%; communication and transport 4%; agriculture, forestry, and fishing 1%; other services (commercial, housing, financial, private health/education, hotel and catering, etc.) 24%." http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3421.htm http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3421.htm So while manufacturing is smaller sector than services in Norway, it's not negligible at all.
zvrba 15y ago
(A foreigner living in Norway here.) You can relatively often hear Norwegians joking about Swedes, and vice-versa. So I asked a friend of mine (he's Norwegian) about this "friendly hostility", to which he replied: "Norway has oil, Sweden has industry." Another, probably little-known fact, [I can't dig out a historical reference -- I remember conversations with people] is that Norway offered Sweden to jointly engage in oil extraction in the early days, which Sweden declined.
Selvik 15y ago
Nope, that "we could buy sweden" stuff is just embarrassingly boorish nationalism, or a joke at the expense of boorish nationalists. Everything being equal (and it pretty much is) Norwegians will be marginally richer than swedes and danes as long as the oil money lasts. Marginally being the operative word. (I'm Norwegian)

by Zirro 15y ago

Rastafarian 15y ago

I'd say it's wrong. There are more than 200K Swedes currently residing and working in Norway. Not only young people working no-skill jobs for $140 a day, but also many scientists, IT pros/developers, managers, entrepreneurs. I've lived and worked in both countries and while Sweden feels like one of the rich US states or parts of EU, Norway has out of this world standard of living. Can give you countless examples. A neighbour of mine was a single father of three children, the government (NAV) was paying his rent, bills, other expenses, vacation(!), etc. for almost a year. That was social help not based on previous taxes or income. Most Norwegians (IMH experience) who are serious about gaming would work one year and live the next year on the extremely generous unemployment benefits provided by NAV.

vetler 15y ago
200K swedes? Do you have a reference for that number? I've heard lower numbers. Here's an article (in Norwegian) from 2009 saying it's just under 80 000: http://www.hegnar.no/personlig_okonomi/article391433.ece http://www.hegnar.no/personlig_okonomi/article391433.ece
- anghyflawn 15y ago
  Yep, 200K sounds a bit too many: Statistics Norway shows under 70K Scandinavians (not just Swedes) as of 01/01/11 http://ssb.no/emner/02/01/10/innvbef/tab-2011-04-28-08.html http://ssb.no/emner/02/01/10/innvbef/tab-2011-04-28-08.html You probably have to add some commuters, but they will hardly change the big picture.
  - swah 15y ago
    What do you mean when you say "scandinavians in Norway"? If "Scandinavia is a region that includes the three kingdoms of Denmark, Norway and Sweden" that doesn't make sense...
    - anghyflawn 15y ago
      This is Statistics Norway's overview of immigrants by country of origin. So this means that people from Scandinavian, or rather Nordic, countries other than Norway (i.e. Denmark incl. the Faroes and Greenland, Sweden, Finland and Iceland). I can't find a more detailed breakdown right now.
- Rastafarian 15y ago
  Yeah, numbers got messed in my little brain. It's 200K Pakistanis and 80K Swedes.

geon 15y ago

Right. (Swede here) Norway and Sweden are virtually identical as far as I can tell. Though I haven't lived there, I work with norwegians and visit a few times a year since 2008. Standard of living might be a bit higher, but not drastically. Naturally, Salaries are a lot lower in Sweden, but so are the prices. Food prices in Norway are often double, rarely less than 150%. One interesting detail is infrastructure. Due to all the mountains and fjords, building highways in Norway is super expensive. Lots of tunnels. Smaller roads tend to follow the natural, winding shape of the land, making them slow and long.

danteembermage 15y ago
From the GDP per capita adjusted by PPP you're right, there's not that huge a difference betweeen them (52k vs. 38k): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_... Whereas the nominal GDP per capita is huge (84k vs. 49k in Sweden and 47k in the US) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomin... So yes, $84,000 is nice, but it's much much nicer in Sweden than in Norway in terms of what you can buy with it
mbesto 15y ago
I've got tons of Swedish friends, some of who live in Oslo. They basically say that you can speak Swedish in Oslo nowadays because of how many Swedes have immigrated there. Why? Because there are better jobs and they pay more.
- krig 15y ago
  The same is true in every major scandinavian country. I think it's a case of several factors conspiring: 1. There are more swedes in scandinavia than there are any other nationality. 2. Young people move to the cities to find work. 3. Youth unemployment rates are high across scandinavia. 4. Ease of mobility across the scandinavian cultures. Olso in particular is close to sweden, and swedes understand norwegian with very little effort (and vice versa). Thus, you have young swedes moving into all of the larger cities in scandinavia, including Stockholm, Malmö and Gothenburg.

lobster_johnson 15y ago

Whereas Norway was able to build its wealth on oil, Sweden -- having only a tiny, tiny bit of oil -- had to build their country the hard way, with industry and commerce. And they are very, very good at it. As a result, Sweden seems comparatively more active, in terms of industry and business in general. They have a lively entrepreneurial spirit, and a lively Internet startup scene. Norway is still lagging in this area, perhaps as a result of having become docile by not having to fight for its economy. In terms of living standards, Norway and Sweden are on the same level, and at roughly the same gini index. Sweden's GDP is about 30% higher, but Norway's is 45% higher per capita.

_delirium 15y ago
While it's true that Sweden doesn't have oil, it does have considerable natural resources: mining, forestry, and hydroelectric-power account for about 30% of its exports (about 350 billion SEK = US $50 billion). It's the 2nd-largest producer of wood and paper products after Canada, I believe, and mining's traditionally been a huge part of the economy, though it's less important now than it was some decades ago.
- lobster_johnson 15y ago
  Absolutely. But if you look at exports, you will also see that Sweden produces a huge amount of stuff. Chemicals, machinery, transport, cars, telecomms etc. Its exports in those areas are almost the size of Norway's petro business. Norway has comparatively little manufacturing.
  - varjag 15y ago
    "GDP by activity (2010): Oil and gas 22%; general government 16%; manufacturing, mining, electricity, building and construction 15%; value added tax (VAT), etc. 11%; commodities, vehicle repairs, etc. 7%; communication and transport 4%; agriculture, forestry, and fishing 1%; other services (commercial, housing, financial, private health/education, hotel and catering, etc.) 24%." http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3421.htm http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3421.htm So while manufacturing is smaller sector than services in Norway, it's not negligible at all.

zvrba 15y ago

(A foreigner living in Norway here.) You can relatively often hear Norwegians joking about Swedes, and vice-versa. So I asked a friend of mine (he's Norwegian) about this "friendly hostility", to which he replied: "Norway has oil, Sweden has industry." Another, probably little-known fact, [I can't dig out a historical reference -- I remember conversations with people] is that Norway offered Sweden to jointly engage in oil extraction in the early days, which Sweden declined.

Selvik 15y ago

Nope, that "we could buy sweden" stuff is just embarrassingly boorish nationalism, or a joke at the expense of boorish nationalists. Everything being equal (and it pretty much is) Norwegians will be marginally richer than swedes and danes as long as the oil money lasts. Marginally being the operative word. (I'm Norwegian)