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> F. that, the only viable solution I see for my country is an exit from the EU Genuine, not loaded question: and then what? What do you expect to happen?

donkeyd 4y ago
Probably what Brexiteers expected to happen, that everything they don't like disappears and nothing gets worse.
- Dudeman112 4y ago
  Am currently living in England, can confirm things they don't like didn't disappear and things have, in fact, been getting worse But hey, happy fishes and being able to flaunt that stylish passport on the massive customs queue Maybe I should get myself a job in the continent and move there...
  - pharmakom 4y ago
    UK government is working hard to replace all the worst aspects of the EU with homegrown alternatives.
    - account-5 4y ago
      Dare I say worse ones for privacy and public protection.
    - monkeynotes 4y ago
      Examples? And what about replacing all the good things the EU provided with homegrown initiatives?
      - jokethrowaway 4y ago
        What were the good things beside less hassles when travelling and some money thrown at universities? Genuine question.
        monkeynotes 4y ago
        Erm, free movement of goods and services, labour, capital. Access to the world's largest single market with no restrictions which by itself allows more UK businesses to thrive. Huge benefit to being able to choose from numerous places to live and work. The UKs trade swagger is demonstrably worse without free access to the single market. Numerous academic studies have shown that long-term the UK will be worse off. Trade is the big one.
      - pharmakom 4y ago
        So one example is pushing the surveillance and anti encryption agenda covered in this article.
- tzs 4y ago
  What amazes me is how few details were in the referendum. The question asked was "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" and the possible responses were "Remain a member of the European Union" and "Leave the European Union". There are a lot of ways Brexit could have been implemented. One extreme would be to make it so the UK has no special arrangements with the EU. It would be just another non-EU country, like say Mexico or Japan, that trades with the EU. Agreements and treaties would arise eventually to deal with issues as needed. The opposite way would be to make it more like say Norway. Norway is not a member of the EU but is part of the Schengen area along with many EU countries greatly easing travel. It's part of the European Economic Area, easing trade. Are politics in the UK stable enough that at the time of the vote one could predict which kind of Brexit would be implemented? I don't think anyone seriously thought that Brexit would be fast, so implementation would be years after the referendum.
- jokethrowaway 4y ago
  The real reason Brexit happened is that people were concerned about the immigration of poor Europeans in the UK and the future prospects of having to bear a share of the poor Africans together with the rest of EU. I was a poor European who moved to the UK and I've seen first hand the problems that immigration of poor people can cause on crime (from drunks to petty theft to stabbing) and how much the locals dislike it. I've seen the same happening in Italy and the situation nowadays is so bad I would be genuinely scared to live next to the train station in any major city in Italy. I think a model based on skills is the best approach: if you want to move in you should be able to prove you're skilled and that we need you. Once you pass the checkboxes the process should also be much smoother than what it is right now, the typical bureaucratic nightmare.
deleted 4y ago
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paganel 4y ago
> and then what? What do you expect to happen? When the Government did do shitty things in the past we used to go out in the streets, we last did that 4-5 years ago. It helps that the main Government building is only two tram stations away from where I'm living and from where I'm writing this comment, so that helps. I wouldn't even know where in Bruxelles to protest against this, never mind that I'd have to take a plane to get to said protest. Granted, laws like this one are mostly a clear pass-through for any party that holds power, mostly because the "liberal" middle-classes (the ones who usually go out to protest against a Government they don't like) basically support laws similar to this (unless instructed otherwise). There are people though who do protest against this sort of stuff. I remember joining a protest against electronic IDs about 10 years ago (give or take), organised by a local religious organisation (I was and still am an atheist), which protest was of course derided by member of said "liberal" middle-classes with stuff like "look at these religious n.ts! they think they're going to have the number of the devil imprinted on a chip located inside of their brains" (I'm paraphrasing, but not by much). Also, the only consistent movement (for lack of a better term) against electronic centralisation (including surveillance, of course) of most of our lives comes from the same religious and traditional fringes. If they will go out in the streets to protest against it, and they might, I'll most surely join them, while, I repeat, I wouldn't even know what European-wide movement to join in order to combat this, to say nothing of its effectiveness (by "joining" I mean physical presence, not only just an online petition thing).
jokethrowaway 4y ago
It's easier to go to the capital of your country and bomb the parliament than go and do the same in Bruxelles. You can't expect foreign politicians who can't even spell your country correctly to care about your problems. You can keep your local politicians more accountable. I personally think we should decentralise power even more: country level is still too much. EU level is just ridiculous.

donkeyd 4y ago

Probably what Brexiteers expected to happen, that everything they don't like disappears and nothing gets worse.

Dudeman112 4y ago
Am currently living in England, can confirm things they don't like didn't disappear and things have, in fact, been getting worse But hey, happy fishes and being able to flaunt that stylish passport on the massive customs queue Maybe I should get myself a job in the continent and move there...
- pharmakom 4y ago
  UK government is working hard to replace all the worst aspects of the EU with homegrown alternatives.
  - account-5 4y ago
    Dare I say worse ones for privacy and public protection.
  - monkeynotes 4y ago
    Examples? And what about replacing all the good things the EU provided with homegrown initiatives?
    - jokethrowaway 4y ago
      What were the good things beside less hassles when travelling and some money thrown at universities? Genuine question.
      - monkeynotes 4y ago
        Erm, free movement of goods and services, labour, capital. Access to the world's largest single market with no restrictions which by itself allows more UK businesses to thrive. Huge benefit to being able to choose from numerous places to live and work. The UKs trade swagger is demonstrably worse without free access to the single market. Numerous academic studies have shown that long-term the UK will be worse off. Trade is the big one.
    - pharmakom 4y ago
      So one example is pushing the surveillance and anti encryption agenda covered in this article.
tzs 4y ago
What amazes me is how few details were in the referendum. The question asked was "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" and the possible responses were "Remain a member of the European Union" and "Leave the European Union". There are a lot of ways Brexit could have been implemented. One extreme would be to make it so the UK has no special arrangements with the EU. It would be just another non-EU country, like say Mexico or Japan, that trades with the EU. Agreements and treaties would arise eventually to deal with issues as needed. The opposite way would be to make it more like say Norway. Norway is not a member of the EU but is part of the Schengen area along with many EU countries greatly easing travel. It's part of the European Economic Area, easing trade. Are politics in the UK stable enough that at the time of the vote one could predict which kind of Brexit would be implemented? I don't think anyone seriously thought that Brexit would be fast, so implementation would be years after the referendum.
jokethrowaway 4y ago
The real reason Brexit happened is that people were concerned about the immigration of poor Europeans in the UK and the future prospects of having to bear a share of the poor Africans together with the rest of EU. I was a poor European who moved to the UK and I've seen first hand the problems that immigration of poor people can cause on crime (from drunks to petty theft to stabbing) and how much the locals dislike it. I've seen the same happening in Italy and the situation nowadays is so bad I would be genuinely scared to live next to the train station in any major city in Italy. I think a model based on skills is the best approach: if you want to move in you should be able to prove you're skilled and that we need you. Once you pass the checkboxes the process should also be much smoother than what it is right now, the typical bureaucratic nightmare.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

paganel 4y ago

> and then what? What do you expect to happen? When the Government did do shitty things in the past we used to go out in the streets, we last did that 4-5 years ago. It helps that the main Government building is only two tram stations away from where I'm living and from where I'm writing this comment, so that helps. I wouldn't even know where in Bruxelles to protest against this, never mind that I'd have to take a plane to get to said protest. Granted, laws like this one are mostly a clear pass-through for any party that holds power, mostly because the "liberal" middle-classes (the ones who usually go out to protest against a Government they don't like) basically support laws similar to this (unless instructed otherwise). There are people though who do protest against this sort of stuff. I remember joining a protest against electronic IDs about 10 years ago (give or take), organised by a local religious organisation (I was and still am an atheist), which protest was of course derided by member of said "liberal" middle-classes with stuff like "look at these religious n.ts! they think they're going to have the number of the devil imprinted on a chip located inside of their brains" (I'm paraphrasing, but not by much). Also, the only consistent movement (for lack of a better term) against electronic centralisation (including surveillance, of course) of most of our lives comes from the same religious and traditional fringes. If they will go out in the streets to protest against it, and they might, I'll most surely join them, while, I repeat, I wouldn't even know what European-wide movement to join in order to combat this, to say nothing of its effectiveness (by "joining" I mean physical presence, not only just an online petition thing).

jokethrowaway 4y ago

It's easier to go to the capital of your country and bomb the parliament than go and do the same in Bruxelles. You can't expect foreign politicians who can't even spell your country correctly to care about your problems. You can keep your local politicians more accountable. I personally think we should decentralise power even more: country level is still too much. EU level is just ridiculous.