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As an EU citizen I didn't know exactly what that Chat Control thing was, so I web searched it: > The EU wants to oblige providers to search all private chats,

As an EU citizen I didn't know exactly what that Chat Control thing was, so I web searched it: > The EU wants to oblige providers to search all private chats, messages, and emails automatically for suspicious content – generally and indiscriminately. The stated aim: To prosecute child pornography. [1] Yeah, that will go down well, a central government checking our private conversations for "suspicious content". Of course they would use the "think of the children" trope, they could also have gone with the "think of the bad terrorists" trope, but that would have been too American, too cowboy-ish, we need to feel special, we're Europeans, after all. Minus some street protests I don't think we can actually stop this, and, even then, I have my very big doubts. It so happens that I live in the EU periphery (I still need to present my ID card if I want to travel to Budapest or West from there), and it sickens me to see that my privacy depends on countries and electorates on which I have no say (like Germany, with all due respect to the Germans who still care about their privacy). Why should my privacy be made fun of because of decisions taken by some people from half way around the continent with which I have no direct connection and no shared past? Did they have a Securitate-like thing? Many of them didn't, and even those that did (like the same Germans), it looks like it doesn't matter at this point, they're all too happy to see their private political conversations be scrutinised 24/7. F. that, the only viable solution I see for my country is an exit from the EU, but the money (still) coming in from Bruxelles is too good to leave aside for pesky political principles, so of course that no serious politician from around these parts puts the problem that way. [1] https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/messaging-and-chat-control/ https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/messaging-and-chat-co...

easytiger 4y ago
- yccs27 4y ago
  Sorry, sarcastic remarks with no discussion don't get upvotes. That is standard here, unlike on Reddit.
  - the_only_law 4y ago
    It’s trivial to disprove that but ok, whatever makes you sleep at night.
  - easytiger 4y ago
aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
>F. that, the only viable solution I see for my country is an exit from the EU I don't think non-EU Eastern European countries have such a stellar track record with respect to privacy...
tcptomato 4y ago
> like Germany, with all due respect to the Germans who still care about their privacy What are you talking about? The german speaking world cares (maybe a bit too much) about privacy. This is why google street view sucks in Germany. NOYB - European Center for Digital Rights is headquartered in Vienna.
- flipbrad 4y ago
  Vienna is in Austria, not Germany
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - aivisol 4y ago
    Austria is considered a part of german speaking world
    - seper8 4y ago
      Yes, but its not in Germany.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - easytiger 4y ago
    On that point Austrian privacy laws are insane. CCTV is a nightmare to set up there. https://edpb.europa.eu/news/national-news/2018/first-austrian-fine-cctv-coverage-summary_en https://edpb.europa.eu/news/national-news/2018/first-austria...
    - flipbrad 4y ago
      So is data loss prevention or other forms of workplace monitoring
    - estebank 4y ago
spaetzleesser 4y ago
" the only viable solution I see for my country is an exit from the EU," I suspect the privacy situation is much worse in most countries outside the EU.
rpastuszak 4y ago
> F. that, the only viable solution I see for my country is an exit from the EU Genuine, not loaded question: and then what? What do you expect to happen?
- donkeyd 4y ago
  Probably what Brexiteers expected to happen, that everything they don't like disappears and nothing gets worse.
  - Dudeman112 4y ago
    Am currently living in England, can confirm things they don't like didn't disappear and things have, in fact, been getting worse But hey, happy fishes and being able to flaunt that stylish passport on the massive customs queue Maybe I should get myself a job in the continent and move there...
    - pharmakom 4y ago
      UK government is working hard to replace all the worst aspects of the EU with homegrown alternatives.
      - account-5 4y ago
        Dare I say worse ones for privacy and public protection.
      - monkeynotes 4y ago
        Examples? And what about replacing all the good things the EU provided with homegrown initiatives?
        jokethrowaway 4y ago
        What were the good things beside less hassles when travelling and some money thrown at universities? Genuine question.
hedgedoops2 4y ago
> and it sickens me to see that my privacy depends on countries and electorates on which I have no say The problem isn't "foreign rule". The Swiss, famously independent, have one of the worst surveillance laws. Doesn't chat control require unanimity in the EU council? If yes, if it happens, it will be because of 'your own' politicians. Also, the EU parliament votes on this, and small countries have more power than large ones there, more votes per citizen Lots of these laws are being independently adopted all around the world. I will believe this is a foreign rule issue once you can show me one democratic country that consistently opposes internet surveillance and defends privacy and rejects 4-horseman based bogeyman politics. And where big countries pressure it to change that. All countries are susceptible to this brand of demagoguery. I will grant that the size of the EU enables it to pass surveillance laws that would otherwise not happen - any single EU member state would not be able to suggest change to global law the way the EU can. But then theres China, the US.
- zx85wes 4y ago
  But the Swiss could organise a referendum and could've voted it down if they had wanted. (and they can also vote for much more draconian initiatives if they want). Ps : Iceland?
dvfjsdhgfv 4y ago
You don't need to leave Europe. You can use an open platform like Linux and relevant tools, and also educate your close ones what is going on. My experience is they're using spying tools such as WhatsApp or Messenger out of inertia, but when they learn about privacy concerns, they are willing to use an alternative solution, and this is something that spreads around.
t_mann 4y ago
> the only viable solution I see for my country is an exit from the EU The UK thought so too, now they're frontrunning the EU on scraping privacy. I honestly don't even understand one could think an EU exit would address those problems in any way - corporate lobbying is inherent to politics, just look at your national government (whichever that currently is). And realistically speaking, the smaller the entity, the less likely they are of placing meaningful restrictions on US tech firms (like the EU did with GDPR).
- Longhanks 4y ago
  Because, depending on the country, another government may be elected that will change the course. I can't elect anyone in the EU commission. Nor did I vote for my country to put the EU treaties above my constitution.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - t_mann 4y ago
    You also don't elect the members of your national government directly (in no country that I'm aware of, EU or otherwise, not even Switzerland). You're electing members of parliament and/or a president, who will then jointly appoint members of your national government, EU commissioners and a host of other political/judicial/administrative/... positions, in sometimes complicated processes. So your democratic choices affect the EU commission just as they affect your national politics. I'm not saying that the EU couldn't do more to strengthen direct democracy (eg the role of the European Parliament, referenda, direct election of the president of the commission...). I would actually welcome that, but suggesting that current EU politics isn't democratic is a severe misrepresentation of the facts (one that is often peddled by actors with sinister agendas).
    - ekianjo 4y ago
      You are completely missing the point. You have a whole lot of more control on people who live next door to you than bureaucrats living thousands of miles away with whom you have absolutely no connection
raverbashing 4y ago
I always find it funny those "leave the EU" posts because it's usually based on 1) thinking the EU is something apart from the constituent states 2) Naively thinking their countries have nothing to do with the latest EU Commission proposals. And of course the ignorance on the process helps those who want to pass more controversial proposals (as an example see the latest UK "proposals" for the internet) > didn't know exactly what that Chat Control Interesting, several discussions about ChatControl were posted semi-recently (just a minor observation)
yrgulation 4y ago
> but the money (still) coming in from Bruxelles is too good to leave aside for pesky political principles This is a myth. The money Bruxelles “sends” are money lost by customs duties no longer levied by individual states. There are no new money “spent” as such. As for leaving the eu, speak for yourself. Romania has by and large a favourable view of the eu. Those who usually dislike it are either corrupt politicians or really really dumb people (conspiracy types). Germany has many faults for the current state of the eu, but as in any democracy, you can vote better representatives for the eu parliament, instead of the bunch Romania sends at the moment. That way your view will be better supported in their debates against mps from that country.
shreyshnaccount 4y ago
what stops your govt from doing the same even after existing the EU?
thayne 4y ago
Leaving the EU won't help. Laws like this impact the global internet, even if you don't live in the EU.
jacooper 4y ago
Didn't Germany question and pressure the EU consul about chat control? Deutsch: https://netzpolitik.org/2022/chatkontrolle-bundesregierung-loechert-eu-kommission-mit-kritischen-fragen/ https://netzpolitik.org/2022/chatkontrolle-bundesregierung-l... Translation: https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/vitir0/germany_asks_the_eu_commission_61_critical/ https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/vitir0/germany_ask...
monkeynotes 4y ago
When we put in place stuff like this to "think of the children", we tend to neglect what those children will inherit from this legislation. Every year the future for the next generation looks more and more bleak. No wonder depression and anxiety is such a huge problem.
bArray 4y ago
> F. that, the only viable solution I see for my country is an exit from the EU, but the money (still) coming in from Bruxelles is too good to leave aside for pesky political principles, so of course that no serious politician from around these parts puts the problem that way. Without any shadow of a doubt, the EU is trying to create a super state. In its original scope it was a trade union, but it has clearly exceeded its mandate. They now actively look towards creating an army and will be soon forced to start significantly increasing taxes (for complex reasons). Your sovereignty is worth the cost in the long run. You get a large EU tax, and then Brussels decides that it knows how to spend your money better than your own government. Maybe (maybe) you receive an excess amount from Brussels, but there are also hidden costs. One is a slower and more complex political system with many more actors. Another is uncontrolled migration which the EU is currently plagued with. Another is that you are forced to engage in ideological investments your Country may not be aligned with.

easytiger 4y ago

yccs27 4y ago
Sorry, sarcastic remarks with no discussion don't get upvotes. That is standard here, unlike on Reddit.
- the_only_law 4y ago
  It’s trivial to disprove that but ok, whatever makes you sleep at night.
- easytiger 4y ago

aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago

>F. that, the only viable solution I see for my country is an exit from the EU I don't think non-EU Eastern European countries have such a stellar track record with respect to privacy...

tcptomato 4y ago

> like Germany, with all due respect to the Germans who still care about their privacy What are you talking about? The german speaking world cares (maybe a bit too much) about privacy. This is why google street view sucks in Germany. NOYB - European Center for Digital Rights is headquartered in Vienna.

flipbrad 4y ago
Vienna is in Austria, not Germany
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- aivisol 4y ago
  Austria is considered a part of german speaking world
  - seper8 4y ago
    Yes, but its not in Germany.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- easytiger 4y ago
  On that point Austrian privacy laws are insane. CCTV is a nightmare to set up there. https://edpb.europa.eu/news/national-news/2018/first-austrian-fine-cctv-coverage-summary_en https://edpb.europa.eu/news/national-news/2018/first-austria...
  - flipbrad 4y ago
    So is data loss prevention or other forms of workplace monitoring
  - estebank 4y ago

spaetzleesser 4y ago

" the only viable solution I see for my country is an exit from the EU," I suspect the privacy situation is much worse in most countries outside the EU.

rpastuszak 4y ago

> F. that, the only viable solution I see for my country is an exit from the EU Genuine, not loaded question: and then what? What do you expect to happen?

donkeyd 4y ago
Probably what Brexiteers expected to happen, that everything they don't like disappears and nothing gets worse.
- Dudeman112 4y ago
  Am currently living in England, can confirm things they don't like didn't disappear and things have, in fact, been getting worse But hey, happy fishes and being able to flaunt that stylish passport on the massive customs queue Maybe I should get myself a job in the continent and move there...
  - pharmakom 4y ago
    UK government is working hard to replace all the worst aspects of the EU with homegrown alternatives.
    - account-5 4y ago
      Dare I say worse ones for privacy and public protection.
    - monkeynotes 4y ago
      Examples? And what about replacing all the good things the EU provided with homegrown initiatives?
      - jokethrowaway 4y ago
        What were the good things beside less hassles when travelling and some money thrown at universities? Genuine question.

hedgedoops2 4y ago

> and it sickens me to see that my privacy depends on countries and electorates on which I have no say The problem isn't "foreign rule". The Swiss, famously independent, have one of the worst surveillance laws. Doesn't chat control require unanimity in the EU council? If yes, if it happens, it will be because of 'your own' politicians. Also, the EU parliament votes on this, and small countries have more power than large ones there, more votes per citizen Lots of these laws are being independently adopted all around the world. I will believe this is a foreign rule issue once you can show me one democratic country that consistently opposes internet surveillance and defends privacy and rejects 4-horseman based bogeyman politics. And where big countries pressure it to change that. All countries are susceptible to this brand of demagoguery. I will grant that the size of the EU enables it to pass surveillance laws that would otherwise not happen - any single EU member state would not be able to suggest change to global law the way the EU can. But then theres China, the US.

zx85wes 4y ago
But the Swiss could organise a referendum and could've voted it down if they had wanted. (and they can also vote for much more draconian initiatives if they want). Ps : Iceland?

dvfjsdhgfv 4y ago

You don't need to leave Europe. You can use an open platform like Linux and relevant tools, and also educate your close ones what is going on. My experience is they're using spying tools such as WhatsApp or Messenger out of inertia, but when they learn about privacy concerns, they are willing to use an alternative solution, and this is something that spreads around.

t_mann 4y ago

> the only viable solution I see for my country is an exit from the EU The UK thought so too, now they're frontrunning the EU on scraping privacy. I honestly don't even understand one could think an EU exit would address those problems in any way - corporate lobbying is inherent to politics, just look at your national government (whichever that currently is). And realistically speaking, the smaller the entity, the less likely they are of placing meaningful restrictions on US tech firms (like the EU did with GDPR).

Longhanks 4y ago
Because, depending on the country, another government may be elected that will change the course. I can't elect anyone in the EU commission. Nor did I vote for my country to put the EU treaties above my constitution.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- t_mann 4y ago
  You also don't elect the members of your national government directly (in no country that I'm aware of, EU or otherwise, not even Switzerland). You're electing members of parliament and/or a president, who will then jointly appoint members of your national government, EU commissioners and a host of other political/judicial/administrative/... positions, in sometimes complicated processes. So your democratic choices affect the EU commission just as they affect your national politics. I'm not saying that the EU couldn't do more to strengthen direct democracy (eg the role of the European Parliament, referenda, direct election of the president of the commission...). I would actually welcome that, but suggesting that current EU politics isn't democratic is a severe misrepresentation of the facts (one that is often peddled by actors with sinister agendas).
  - ekianjo 4y ago
    You are completely missing the point. You have a whole lot of more control on people who live next door to you than bureaucrats living thousands of miles away with whom you have absolutely no connection

raverbashing 4y ago

I always find it funny those "leave the EU" posts because it's usually based on 1) thinking the EU is something apart from the constituent states 2) Naively thinking their countries have nothing to do with the latest EU Commission proposals. And of course the ignorance on the process helps those who want to pass more controversial proposals (as an example see the latest UK "proposals" for the internet) > didn't know exactly what that Chat Control Interesting, several discussions about ChatControl were posted semi-recently (just a minor observation)

yrgulation 4y ago

> but the money (still) coming in from Bruxelles is too good to leave aside for pesky political principles This is a myth. The money Bruxelles “sends” are money lost by customs duties no longer levied by individual states. There are no new money “spent” as such. As for leaving the eu, speak for yourself. Romania has by and large a favourable view of the eu. Those who usually dislike it are either corrupt politicians or really really dumb people (conspiracy types). Germany has many faults for the current state of the eu, but as in any democracy, you can vote better representatives for the eu parliament, instead of the bunch Romania sends at the moment. That way your view will be better supported in their debates against mps from that country.

shreyshnaccount 4y ago

what stops your govt from doing the same even after existing the EU?

thayne 4y ago

Leaving the EU won't help. Laws like this impact the global internet, even if you don't live in the EU.

jacooper 4y ago

Didn't Germany question and pressure the EU consul about chat control? Deutsch: https://netzpolitik.org/2022/chatkontrolle-bundesregierung-loechert-eu-kommission-mit-kritischen-fragen/ https://netzpolitik.org/2022/chatkontrolle-bundesregierung-l... Translation: https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/vitir0/germany_asks_the_eu_commission_61_critical/ https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/vitir0/germany_ask...

monkeynotes 4y ago

When we put in place stuff like this to "think of the children", we tend to neglect what those children will inherit from this legislation. Every year the future for the next generation looks more and more bleak. No wonder depression and anxiety is such a huge problem.

bArray 4y ago

> F. that, the only viable solution I see for my country is an exit from the EU, but the money (still) coming in from Bruxelles is too good to leave aside for pesky political principles, so of course that no serious politician from around these parts puts the problem that way. Without any shadow of a doubt, the EU is trying to create a super state. In its original scope it was a trade union, but it has clearly exceeded its mandate. They now actively look towards creating an army and will be soon forced to start significantly increasing taxes (for complex reasons). Your sovereignty is worth the cost in the long run. You get a large EU tax, and then Brussels decides that it knows how to spend your money better than your own government. Maybe (maybe) you receive an excess amount from Brussels, but there are also hidden costs. One is a slower and more complex political system with many more actors. Another is uncontrolled migration which the EU is currently plagued with. Another is that you are forced to engage in ideological investments your Country may not be aligned with.