10 ms·

A 12-Year-Old Died on an E-Bike. Is the Manufacturer to Blame?

28 points by c0nsumer 4y ago

imgabe 4y ago
The rule of headlines: if there’s a question, the answer is no.
eimrine 4y ago
jbirer 4y ago
This seems more about the parent's attempt at image management (cover up own failure as parents). The article does not mention any technical fault with the e-bike, instead mentioning two minors riding it at full speed on hilly ground.
- wl 4y ago
  Plaintiffs allege that the combination of quick release axels and disc brakes is a technical fault that lead directly to this accident because the axel loosened under braking load.
- thefz 4y ago
  I don't think it is the manufacturer's fault and I don't think it's the parents' fault either. The bike isn't marketed towards children specifically; the parents could not have predicted the front wheel coming apart, maybe it was the 100th ride the kids went on that bike.
  - golemotron 4y ago
    Both parents are trial lawyers. That's a contributing cause to the lawsuit, at least.
  - sithadmin 4y ago
    Rad Power is pretty dang clear that they are selling for riders 16 and older, and that operation by younger people is potentially a hazard. It's on their website. It's on the box, and on stickers and a tag that is physically attached to the bike when it ships, if I recall correctly. It's in the manual. I'm not sure what else Rad Power could reasonably be expected to do here to prevent bad parenting.
  - cheschire 4y ago
    The way I read your message was like the wheel disintegrated, perhaps due to poorly tightened or weakened spokes. > The suit goes on to argue that the quick release came loose as Steinsapir’s friend was applying the front brake, which allegedly caused the wheel to wobble and ultimately caused the crash. But what this reads like to me is the quick release was not tightened adequately or perhaps the quick release was not tightened or checked recently. This seems even more likely if it was the 100th ride. And that easily could've been a parent's mistake for not tightening the quick release adequately. So yeah, too many question marks for me to pass judgment here. I'll leave it to the professionals and hope that Rad doesn't get put out of business unjustly.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
  If you could find media content from the manufacturer that explicitly markets to children, or is exemplifying dangerous and reckless usage of their product, then they could have a case.
- sithadmin 4y ago
  It mentions two supposed faults: use of a quick release mechanism on the front wheel in conjunction with disc brakes; that the 'electrical power failed to shut down'. There's potentially merit in the first one, but it seems like the front wheel didn't actually loosen or eject the hub, so it doesn't seem at fault for the wreck here. As a Rad Power bike owner myself, I don't buy the second claim either. The most likely cause here would be user error, with the girl operating the bike continuing to pedal on the downhill, causing the hub motor to engage up until the governor's 20mph limit. (She also could have been engaging the throttle, but if she was breaking, that would be VERY difficult for an 11-year-old's hands to do on a Rad Power. Keeping the throttle engaged while also braking is not exactly easy for a full-grown hand to do given the design. I don't see a kid doing it.)
- chasd00 4y ago
  They’re probably just very angry and hurt and looking for any kind of revenge they can find.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    Which is understandable, but I still hope they win the suit with a judgment of $1 and court costs only.
xutopia 4y ago
They talk about this being a known industry issue. It isn't. I hope the family finds another way to go through bereavement.
- thefz 4y ago
  It really is not. Lots of road bikes have a Quick Release front wheel and disc brakes, and with these you can reach, or even pass, the speed of a car going downhill. Some older mountain bikes have a QR in the rear too. You just need to make sure these are tight enough.
  - n4r9 4y ago
    Both my current and previous road bikes have quick release wheels both front and back, and they're newish models.
    - sithadmin 4y ago
      If it's a traditional design made in the last couple of decades, you'll probably find that they have 'lawyer lips', which are a common preventative measure to help keep the forks from ejecting the hubs by accident (provided that the quick release skewer is installed tensioned correctly). On higher end bikes, 'thru axle' designs that eliminate this potential failure mode are increasingly popular.
      - mathieuh 4y ago
        Yes I have thru axles on my road bike. I much prefer them to QRs because now I can change a tube and put the wheel back in and not have to worry about rubbing brakes.
  - NoPicklez 4y ago
    There was a flaw that caused an enormous recall years ago over quick release levers and disk brakes. Not saying I agree and I’m not saying this is what they’re referring to but I believe this is what is being argued in the case. http://www.bikeroar.com/articles/bicycle-industry-issues-its-biggest-voluntary-recall-due-to-disc-brake-qr-concern http://www.bikeroar.com/articles/bicycle-industry-issues-its...
dncornholio 4y ago
I don't think letting your 11 and 12 year old alone on an e-bike (or any motorised vehicle) is a good idea, but what do I know.. I checked, and this bike is not even marketed to children. Sue-ing the manufacturer is insane in my eyes.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  They bombed down a hill and crashed. It was the gravitational potential energy that killed them, not anything to do with the fact that the bike was motorized.
  - soco 4y ago
    No prob we'll sue Newton then, damn gravitation.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  I mean when I was 11 I was driving a 250bhp eight tonne four wheel drive tractor around the place and bombing around fields in a semi-scrap Renault 4 with little-to-no supervision, and I turned out to be a pretty okay driver.
  - eimrine 4y ago
    The girls were having significantly less number of wheels.
  - dncornholio 4y ago
    That's because you didn't die.
  - BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 4y ago
    Tractors kill lots of farm kids. In the UK it's illegal to allow a child to ride a tractor. Yeah, I know it's a tradition.
    - Gordonjcp 4y ago
Syonyk 4y ago
> My main complaint about the RadWagon is that it doesn’t have hydraulic disc brakes, instead using a less effective mechanical version, which don’t have the stopping power that their more complicated counterparts do. So... replace them with hydraulic ones? Have your bike shop do it? If you're not happy with the braking, the right answer is to find a way to fix it. I went through several different types of brakes on my Seattle ebike commuter builds, before settling on some fairly high end dual piston hydraulic brakes with the "ebike" pad compound (a higher temperature compound). The mechanical ones didn't work as well as I liked on hills and the feel was awful, so I found some that worked better, and when they suffered heat fade on some of the quite steep hills, I played with brake pad compounds until I found some that worked well.
- jdhawk 4y ago
  Kinda silly that we're putting motors on bikes that outclass the braking system though, yeah? Imagine a Corvette with the brakes of a Malibu. Would chevy would be torched for creating an unsafe vehicle? Kinda the same theory here...If you're selling a package make sure all the components are sized to work appropriately together.
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    > Imagine a Corvette with the brakes of a Malibu. <thinks about every American car I've ever driven> A Corvette with any sort of brakes would be an improvement.
  - salawat 4y ago
    ...All sports cars I've had occasion to drive have woefully undersized brakes. I ...uh... Learned that in a way that resulted in two sets of soiled trousers, that I'm pretty sure the other person will never forgive me for, even though both of us by the grace of God alone came out of the experience with little more than a "Holy Shit". Blind hills with left turns just past the crest are no joke.
  - SauciestGNU 4y ago
    I have one of these bikes, and the mechanical disc brakes do not outpace the motor. They provide adequate (even snappy) stopping power in every condition I've tested them in. I'm also a qualified bike mechanic and I've done maintenance on my Rad Runner. The factory assembled bits are all properly and well installed, with everything torqued to spec and loctite applied to some threads of hardware that's more permanent. It's really silly to throw blame around for such a tragic event, but a loose quick release skewer cannot be attributed to anything except user error.
gcatalfamo 4y ago
No country other than US would ever think about it being a legitimate question. We should start taking responsibility for our inability or recklessness when using potentially dangerous products. Unless the product was faulty in some way, which it doesn't seem it was, trying to extort millions from manufactures can't be seen as an act of progress.
- moscovium 4y ago
  Which is why consumer product safety in the US is very high. Also did you even read the article? They argue the brake failed because of the design of the bike. "The suit goes on to argue that the quick release came loose as Steinsapir’s friend was applying the front brake, which allegedly caused the wheel to wobble and ultimately caused the crash. The plaintiffs also say that the surviving girl—who we’re not naming because she’s a minor—attempted to turn off the bike, but that the electrical power failed to shut down."
  - dinkledunk 4y ago
    Maybe if you compare the US to China. But compared to the EU the US is basically worse.
    - mosseater 4y ago
      Actually consumer saftey in e-bikes seems to be higher in China than in the US. Radpower bikes go up to 32km/h, while ebikes in china are legally limited to 25km/h. There's further restrictions on the weight and battery life, along with some other stuff I can't read because I don't speak Chinese. https://www.sjgrand.cn/how-legally-drive-ebike-china/ https://www.sjgrand.cn/how-legally-drive-ebike-china/
- jonatron 4y ago
  I can imagine the question being asked in the UK, because of this case: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-35048851 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-35048851
- 4y ago
t6jvcereio 4y ago
Did the manufacturer claim the bike was self-driving?
bell-cot 4y ago
> Both [bereaved] parents are also lawyers; If all you have (for both worldview & skills) is a hammer... > One of the arguments the case makes is that, without the motor, the girls wouldn’t have been on the top of the hill in the first place. If you don't believe that kids (ages 11 & 12) can get a bike to the top of a hill, with the thrill of a fast (exciting, dangerous) ride down the hill as inducement - then maybe you should not be allowed to be a parent. And it's not like the parents involved were magically ignorant of the existence of a steep hill in the area.
- foobarian 4y ago
  And that's how these things are going to start requiring motorcycle registrations to ride. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
    They are not much different than 49cc mopeds terms of speed, are they?
- doubled112 4y ago
  A child died in my city tobogganing last winter. Now the city posts tobogganing hills when they're too icy.
- tomxor 4y ago
  > If all you have (for both worldview & skills) is a hammer... Yup, it's a fishing expedition: > arguing that the helmet Molly wore was defective Really the bike and the helmet? what else is to blame, the hill? They may or may not have had any awareness their kid was going to ride on a friends e-bike - but this is the real issue, e-bikes are not much different to small motorbikes, powered cycles are one of the most dangerous modes of transport, society needs to start appropriately considering them as such.
NoPicklez 4y ago
There was absolutely a design flaw in bikes where the design of the front wheel quick release in combination with disc brakes in some cases could cause the quick release lever to go into the disc brakes causing sudden stoppage. This was addressed through an enormous recall from top end manufacturers. I don’t know if this bike also had the design flaw which made the wheel come loose. Having said that, the argument that without the motor the girls wouldn’t have been able to climb the hill and therefore the bike is bad is a terrible argument. After all, that’s why you buy e-bikes to take you where you normally can’t go. Don’t we buy a normal bikes to be able to travel at speeds you normally couldn’t on foot? The kids were under the recommended minimum age for the bike set by the manufacturer.
- throwaway290 4y ago
  > the argument that without the motor the girls wouldn’t have been able to climb the hill and therefore the bike is bad is a terrible argument I think it is a good argument. There is a difference between powered and unpowered vehicles. Unpowered vehicles are safer for you and for others since you are limited by your own body and it serves as a natural barrier. As soon as you add an engine into the mix to remove that limit, vehicle and the rider should be subject to very different rules and regulations out of concern for public safety. This is not happening because they are electric bikes, which is good for someone's OKRs. Use of electricity prompts many municipalities turn the blind eye to the fact that it has a motor, like a motorcycle, with corresponding problems.
  - NoPicklez 4y ago
    But hang on… why did the parents buy them an e-bike if they didn’t want them to go where an e-bike could take them? Parents buy their kids dirt bikes to do jumps they couldn’t normally do, but they don’t sue Kawasaki because they broke their arm. I understand there are nuances to this, but there has to be some form of responsibility on the parents for buying their kids and knowingly letting them ride a bike that they knew had an engine in it. Disclaimer, I’m only addressing the part about the bike having an engine and that supposedly being a problem. Not any of their other arguments.
cainxinth 4y ago
Full disclosure, I have a Rad Power bike (mini 4), among many other bikes. It has a 750w motor and accelerates really fast if you give it the beans. It’s a dangerous vehicle if you don’t keep your wits about you. I never let my adult friends ride it without a stern safety briefing beforehand. So, first, why were an 11 and 12 year old allowed to use a powerful ebike unsupervised? On a big hill, no less. Rad says their bikes are for people 18 and up, yet the parents say the bike belonged to one of the kid’s 13 year old sister. Second, there is a tiny bit of skill involved in properly tightening a quick release; just because it came loose doesn’t rule out human error. Third, disc brakes and a quick release on the front wheel is a known safety hazard? A staggering number of bikes have that setup. If it’s truly as dangerous as the plaintiffs say, literally hundreds of thousands of bikes will need to be taken off the road. This is a tragic loss for that family, but I’m failing to see how Rad is to blame to the extent they allege.
- rednerrus 4y ago
  0-20 in 17 seconds doesn't seem that fast to me.
- to11mtm 4y ago
  > Third, disc brakes and a quick release on the front wheel is a known safety hazard? A staggering number of bikes have that setup. If it’s truly as dangerous as the plaintiffs say, literally hundreds of thousands of bikes will need to be taken off the road. I mean... OK QR Discs on front wheel is tricky, and was a weird 'elephant in the room' during my time as a shop mechanic. The problem is that forces involved will often result in the quick release mechanism loosening over time. This has been long known/documented [0]. They -can- be more dangerous than Vs or Canti's IMO. I know there was a recall within the last couple years somewhat related to this phenomenon; namely that some QR levers could 'open' too wide and get caught in the rotor. -if- Rad had such a QR, then yes it should not have been on the road. [1] [0] - https://www.sheldonbrown.com/disc-brakes.html https://www.sheldonbrown.com/disc-brakes.html [1] - https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2015/trek-recalls-bicycles-equipped-with-front-disc-brakes-to-replace-quick-release-lever https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2015/trek-recalls-bicycles-equi...
  - 4y ago
paulgb 4y ago
Here's a reddit comment that I found insightful around the claimed issue with disk breaks in combination with quick release: https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/we4fgv/radpower_being_sued_over_death_of_12_year_old/iiny85a/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/we4fgv/radpower_bei... It links to this useful diagram: https://ibb.co/HP0HxVV https://ibb.co/HP0HxVV I'm not a bike expert, but I do notice that in comparison to my bike (which also has QR and disk breaks), the RadRunner 2's dropouts are more downward-facing. The lawsuit is dubious for a lot of reasons, but the point about quick release is more interesting than I expected.
- doubled112 4y ago
  I've never had a problem, but I've joked that all of my QR equipped bikes (which all have disc brakes) have "lawyer tabs" for years. Kids bikes have them too. It goes around the skewer into an additional small hole on the bike with the intent that it will hold if the QR is slightly loose. I don't think it would save you, but it is there. Check your wheel tightness once in a while, everybody.
  - wjnc 4y ago
    I have been cycling sportively (MTB, road) for about two decades. Bounce your bike. Just a couple of bounces on the wheels. It’s just a thing where you would instantly notice any slack on the wheel tension.
    - doubled112 4y ago
      You can find a lot of issues really fast by simply looking and listening while picking up and dropping a bike. I've been doing it subconsciously for years.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      Another trick: engage the brakes, one at the time and rock the bike forward and backward, any slop will instantly show up (sometimes in places where you really don't expect it).
  - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
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mensetmanusman 4y ago
This is part of the reason manufacturing is so expensive in the US.
- tzs 4y ago
  Not really. If you are selling vehicles (or most other products) in the US you can't escape liability by merely manufacturing the products outside the US. It is however a common excuse used by companies that want to move their manufacturing outside the US to save on labor, because saying "We were forced to because of frivolous lawsuits!" goes over a lot better than "We can make more money if we only have to pay a couple dollars an hour for labor".
  - mensetmanusman 4y ago
    There are apparently over 40 million lawsuits filed annually in the US alone, most involving businesses. I see it in my field at least (moving atoms instead of information), if you make anything and have any money, there is a target on your back if any mistake is made.
Steltek 4y ago
We stayed at an RV campground out west this summer and I was blown away by the number of kids on e-bikes, zooming around the campground. It was nearly 100% of all kids bikes there. I guess if you look at a bike as a toy that never sees any roads, it makes sense. But I wouldn't give my kids an e-bike for our city-folk trips around town. They don't have the tuned "street sense" yet to be watching traffic at high speed.
chiffre01 4y ago
After converting several bikes to ebikes from kits, it takes a lot of trial and error to get braking right. Obviously one of the most difficult and important parts of the bike is braking. I've tried different types of discs, pads as well as wired and hydraulic systems. And I agree with others posts here, higher quality pads with disc brakes make a big difference, but hydraulic systems are by far the best option for more stopping power. Most motorcycles use hydraulic systems for a reason and in my opinion ebikes are much closer to a motorcycle than a bike.
- ejolto 4y ago
  What are hydrophilic break systems? Do you mean hydraulic breaks?
  - rascul 4y ago
    I was wondering the same thing. A web search did turn up something to lead me to believe that brake fluid is hydrophilic, though. Also, hydrophilic is a new word for me. https://www.repairsmith.com/blog/brake-fade/ https://www.repairsmith.com/blog/brake-fade/
    - chiffre01 4y ago
      Typo 'hydraulic brakes' was intended.
- hajile 4y ago
  An average motorcycle weighs 600 pounds while an average e-bike will weigh 50 pounds. The necessary stopping power between these is very different. An average motorcycle will have a contact patch with the ground that is many times larger than the contact patch of a bike. Even at high speeds, completely locking up a bike wheel with mechanical disk brakes is not very hard. The biggest issue is putting a 12 year old kid on an e-bike rated for adults with zero supervision and thinking nothing bad could possibly happen. In my opinion, these parents are suing because they can't stand the idea that their poor decision led to the death of their child.
cmpb 4y ago
Accidents on bikes happen, which is a generally accepted risk among parents. I think they'll have more luck with the helmet manufacturer lawsuit, given that the girl died of a head injury.
baybal2 4y ago
elil17 4y ago
The hill argument is silly, but the core of the lawsuit is a design issue with the bike. > The suit claims that the bike’s design made it hard for the girls to control their speed as they sped downhill, specifically because of where the steering axis is placed in relation to the front wheel. As the suit lays out, the bike in question—the RadRunner—has “disc brakes in conjunction with a quick-release mechanism for detaching the front wheel.” This setup is common on a wide range of bikes, and the Steinsapirs claim that it is “a known safety hazard in the industry.” The suit goes on to argue that the quick release came loose as Steinsapir’s friend was applying the front brake, which allegedly caused the wheel to wobble and ultimately caused the crash. I don't know if what they're saying is true, but if it is it's certainly something that's very reasonable to sue over.
- afiori 4y ago
  So it has very little to do with the "E" and a lot more with it being a bad bike
  - elil17 4y ago
    I think they are also making claims about the "E" but the claims which seem valid to me are about the "bike."
- pc86 4y ago
  If it's a known safety hazard, and it's designed that way on a wide range of bikes, it sounds like the parents should have known about it and weighed that risk.
  - elil17 4y ago
    I think it's ridiculous to expect people to do some sort of extensive research before they use a product. Should people who smoked before the surgeon general's warning not have been able to sue the tobacco companies who hid evidence around the dangers of smoking? It would be the same sort of thing from a legal perspective here if the parents claims are true.
deleted 4y ago
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Fradow 4y ago
The silliness of letting kids ride powerful e-bikes unsupervised as been well debated already. I'll just add that speed (20mph or about 32km/h) would actually classify that e-bike as a motorcycle on the other side of the pond (the limit for e-bike electric assist on roads is 25km/h, or about 15mph). > My main complaint about the RadWagon is that it doesn’t have hydraulic disc brakes, instead using a less effective mechanical version, which don’t have the stopping power that their more complicated counterparts do That part is bollocks. Sure, mechanical disk brakes are inferior to hydraulic brakes, but despite having less stopping power, properly maintained mechanical disk brakes can easily lock your wheels in any situation, including with road tires on dry asphalt (where you have the most grip). Note that I talk about first-hand experience. The limit to the stopping power for any disk brakes is generally going to be your tires, not the actual brake.
MarkusWandel 4y ago
Didn't the so-called "lawyer lips" (seriously) solve the front wheel detachment problem years ago? The point of a QR is to be able to pop the lever and out comes the wheel. But for liability reasons front fork dropouts now have extra protrusions that force you to unscrew the QR nut by several turns before you can, in fact, get the wheel out. Apparently not because newer disk-brake bikes now have thru-axles where the wheel can't pop out at all unless the axle is physically removed from the side. It would appear that having a heavy, powerful e-bike would benefit from having the best possible braking/wheel retention system available. But still, whatever happened to responsible use? If a 10 year old gets hold of the car keys and goes for a joyride, sue the car maker?
acdha 4y ago
The owner’s manual point runs me the wrong way, too — describing it as “page 49 out of 57” makes it sound like it’s buried in the back rather than prominently in the safety section which the first page tells you to read. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0799/9645/files/om_run20s1_usa_en_cb_v1-005_up0.pdf?v=1615419791 https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0799/9645/files/om_run20s1... I agree with the assessment other people have made. This is a tragic situation and it seems like the parents are trying to deal with their grief by finding a bad guy other than their daughter’s best friend.
Overtonwindow 4y ago
I’m conflicted. When I was a kid it was not uncommon define 10-year-olds driving go carts and four wheelers. I was one of those kids. However, looking back on that, it was pretty dangerous for a 10-year-old to be in a go cart. And I think it’s dangerous for 12 year old to be using an electric bicycle. I’m conflicted between a child doing something maybe they shouldn’t be doing, and being injured, versus an actual defect with the product. If there is a defect with the steering, then the company is liable. However, if there is no defect, and the company acted in good faith and produced a good product that led to an unfortunate death, then I would have a difficult time blaming it all on the company.
- derkades 4y ago
  For a child, a 4 wheeled kart with speed limit (say 15km/h) is a lot of fun and still very safe. Unlike a bike, maintaining balance is not required.
- hajile 4y ago
  ATVs should be outright banned. Almost 75% of fatal ATV accidents are solo wrecks. They average 135,000 injuries and 700 fatalities per year despite all-time record sale being around 300,000 units per year. That is HALF of all ATVs bought getting into accidents each year. Bikes are MUCH safer. 96% of bicycle fatalities involve a car hitting a bike. The number of bike accidents are around the same as ATV (600-1000 on average) and the number of injuries is similar (about 130,000), but the number of bikes sold per year is about 20,000,000 units or almost 70x higher.
BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 4y ago
When shopping for a bike, I take it down a steep hill to see how it handles at speed. Not every bike does well. Don't know about the bike in question. I do remember the hill. Anyway the manufacturer's lawyers will point out that the bike was not properly assembled (and I bet there's plenty of lawyer approved language about securing the wheels). The other kid's parents will be joined to the lawsuit for improper assembly and supervision. I remember school safety lessons telling us never to ride with another kid on the bike. The extra weight combined with the lack of strength (to control and apply brakes) in the kid driving the bike put the situation beyond the kid's capabilities.
nikau 4y ago
This is likely user error when reinstalling the wheel. QR axles use a cam lever to apply high clamping force to hold the wheel in place. It's not unheard of for inexperienced users to just turn the lever tight without using the cam which doesn't apply enough clamping force causing the wheel to come loose.
thewileyone 4y ago
Tragic loss but its lawyers responding to personal grief, litigate first.
binbashthefash 4y ago
Well we can't hold manufacturers accountable when a 12 year old is killed by AR-15s so i don't see why we care about a bike.

28 points by c0nsumer 4y ago

imgabe 4y ago

The rule of headlines: if there’s a question, the answer is no.

eimrine 4y ago

jbirer 4y ago

This seems more about the parent's attempt at image management (cover up own failure as parents). The article does not mention any technical fault with the e-bike, instead mentioning two minors riding it at full speed on hilly ground.

wl 4y ago
Plaintiffs allege that the combination of quick release axels and disc brakes is a technical fault that lead directly to this accident because the axel loosened under braking load.
thefz 4y ago
I don't think it is the manufacturer's fault and I don't think it's the parents' fault either. The bike isn't marketed towards children specifically; the parents could not have predicted the front wheel coming apart, maybe it was the 100th ride the kids went on that bike.
- golemotron 4y ago
  Both parents are trial lawyers. That's a contributing cause to the lawsuit, at least.
- sithadmin 4y ago
  Rad Power is pretty dang clear that they are selling for riders 16 and older, and that operation by younger people is potentially a hazard. It's on their website. It's on the box, and on stickers and a tag that is physically attached to the bike when it ships, if I recall correctly. It's in the manual. I'm not sure what else Rad Power could reasonably be expected to do here to prevent bad parenting.
- cheschire 4y ago
  The way I read your message was like the wheel disintegrated, perhaps due to poorly tightened or weakened spokes. > The suit goes on to argue that the quick release came loose as Steinsapir’s friend was applying the front brake, which allegedly caused the wheel to wobble and ultimately caused the crash. But what this reads like to me is the quick release was not tightened adequately or perhaps the quick release was not tightened or checked recently. This seems even more likely if it was the 100th ride. And that easily could've been a parent's mistake for not tightening the quick release adequately. So yeah, too many question marks for me to pass judgment here. I'll leave it to the professionals and hope that Rad doesn't get put out of business unjustly.
MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
If you could find media content from the manufacturer that explicitly markets to children, or is exemplifying dangerous and reckless usage of their product, then they could have a case.
sithadmin 4y ago
It mentions two supposed faults: use of a quick release mechanism on the front wheel in conjunction with disc brakes; that the 'electrical power failed to shut down'. There's potentially merit in the first one, but it seems like the front wheel didn't actually loosen or eject the hub, so it doesn't seem at fault for the wreck here. As a Rad Power bike owner myself, I don't buy the second claim either. The most likely cause here would be user error, with the girl operating the bike continuing to pedal on the downhill, causing the hub motor to engage up until the governor's 20mph limit. (She also could have been engaging the throttle, but if she was breaking, that would be VERY difficult for an 11-year-old's hands to do on a Rad Power. Keeping the throttle engaged while also braking is not exactly easy for a full-grown hand to do given the design. I don't see a kid doing it.)
chasd00 4y ago
They’re probably just very angry and hurt and looking for any kind of revenge they can find.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  Which is understandable, but I still hope they win the suit with a judgment of $1 and court costs only.

xutopia 4y ago

They talk about this being a known industry issue. It isn't. I hope the family finds another way to go through bereavement.

thefz 4y ago
It really is not. Lots of road bikes have a Quick Release front wheel and disc brakes, and with these you can reach, or even pass, the speed of a car going downhill. Some older mountain bikes have a QR in the rear too. You just need to make sure these are tight enough.
- n4r9 4y ago
  Both my current and previous road bikes have quick release wheels both front and back, and they're newish models.
  - sithadmin 4y ago
    If it's a traditional design made in the last couple of decades, you'll probably find that they have 'lawyer lips', which are a common preventative measure to help keep the forks from ejecting the hubs by accident (provided that the quick release skewer is installed tensioned correctly). On higher end bikes, 'thru axle' designs that eliminate this potential failure mode are increasingly popular.
    - mathieuh 4y ago
      Yes I have thru axles on my road bike. I much prefer them to QRs because now I can change a tube and put the wheel back in and not have to worry about rubbing brakes.
- NoPicklez 4y ago
  There was a flaw that caused an enormous recall years ago over quick release levers and disk brakes. Not saying I agree and I’m not saying this is what they’re referring to but I believe this is what is being argued in the case. http://www.bikeroar.com/articles/bicycle-industry-issues-its-biggest-voluntary-recall-due-to-disc-brake-qr-concern http://www.bikeroar.com/articles/bicycle-industry-issues-its...

dncornholio 4y ago

I don't think letting your 11 and 12 year old alone on an e-bike (or any motorised vehicle) is a good idea, but what do I know.. I checked, and this bike is not even marketed to children. Sue-ing the manufacturer is insane in my eyes.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
They bombed down a hill and crashed. It was the gravitational potential energy that killed them, not anything to do with the fact that the bike was motorized.
- soco 4y ago
  No prob we'll sue Newton then, damn gravitation.
Gordonjcp 4y ago
I mean when I was 11 I was driving a 250bhp eight tonne four wheel drive tractor around the place and bombing around fields in a semi-scrap Renault 4 with little-to-no supervision, and I turned out to be a pretty okay driver.
- eimrine 4y ago
  The girls were having significantly less number of wheels.
- dncornholio 4y ago
  That's because you didn't die.
- BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 4y ago
  Tractors kill lots of farm kids. In the UK it's illegal to allow a child to ride a tractor. Yeah, I know it's a tradition.
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago

Syonyk 4y ago

> My main complaint about the RadWagon is that it doesn’t have hydraulic disc brakes, instead using a less effective mechanical version, which don’t have the stopping power that their more complicated counterparts do. So... replace them with hydraulic ones? Have your bike shop do it? If you're not happy with the braking, the right answer is to find a way to fix it. I went through several different types of brakes on my Seattle ebike commuter builds, before settling on some fairly high end dual piston hydraulic brakes with the "ebike" pad compound (a higher temperature compound). The mechanical ones didn't work as well as I liked on hills and the feel was awful, so I found some that worked better, and when they suffered heat fade on some of the quite steep hills, I played with brake pad compounds until I found some that worked well.

jdhawk 4y ago
Kinda silly that we're putting motors on bikes that outclass the braking system though, yeah? Imagine a Corvette with the brakes of a Malibu. Would chevy would be torched for creating an unsafe vehicle? Kinda the same theory here...If you're selling a package make sure all the components are sized to work appropriately together.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  > Imagine a Corvette with the brakes of a Malibu. <thinks about every American car I've ever driven> A Corvette with any sort of brakes would be an improvement.
- salawat 4y ago
  ...All sports cars I've had occasion to drive have woefully undersized brakes. I ...uh... Learned that in a way that resulted in two sets of soiled trousers, that I'm pretty sure the other person will never forgive me for, even though both of us by the grace of God alone came out of the experience with little more than a "Holy Shit". Blind hills with left turns just past the crest are no joke.
- SauciestGNU 4y ago
  I have one of these bikes, and the mechanical disc brakes do not outpace the motor. They provide adequate (even snappy) stopping power in every condition I've tested them in. I'm also a qualified bike mechanic and I've done maintenance on my Rad Runner. The factory assembled bits are all properly and well installed, with everything torqued to spec and loctite applied to some threads of hardware that's more permanent. It's really silly to throw blame around for such a tragic event, but a loose quick release skewer cannot be attributed to anything except user error.

gcatalfamo 4y ago

No country other than US would ever think about it being a legitimate question. We should start taking responsibility for our inability or recklessness when using potentially dangerous products. Unless the product was faulty in some way, which it doesn't seem it was, trying to extort millions from manufactures can't be seen as an act of progress.

moscovium 4y ago
Which is why consumer product safety in the US is very high. Also did you even read the article? They argue the brake failed because of the design of the bike. "The suit goes on to argue that the quick release came loose as Steinsapir’s friend was applying the front brake, which allegedly caused the wheel to wobble and ultimately caused the crash. The plaintiffs also say that the surviving girl—who we’re not naming because she’s a minor—attempted to turn off the bike, but that the electrical power failed to shut down."
- dinkledunk 4y ago
  Maybe if you compare the US to China. But compared to the EU the US is basically worse.
  - mosseater 4y ago
    Actually consumer saftey in e-bikes seems to be higher in China than in the US. Radpower bikes go up to 32km/h, while ebikes in china are legally limited to 25km/h. There's further restrictions on the weight and battery life, along with some other stuff I can't read because I don't speak Chinese. https://www.sjgrand.cn/how-legally-drive-ebike-china/ https://www.sjgrand.cn/how-legally-drive-ebike-china/
jonatron 4y ago
I can imagine the question being asked in the UK, because of this case: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-35048851 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-35048851
4y ago

t6jvcereio 4y ago

Did the manufacturer claim the bike was self-driving?

bell-cot 4y ago

> Both [bereaved] parents are also lawyers; If all you have (for both worldview & skills) is a hammer... > One of the arguments the case makes is that, without the motor, the girls wouldn’t have been on the top of the hill in the first place. If you don't believe that kids (ages 11 & 12) can get a bike to the top of a hill, with the thrill of a fast (exciting, dangerous) ride down the hill as inducement - then maybe you should not be allowed to be a parent. And it's not like the parents involved were magically ignorant of the existence of a steep hill in the area.

foobarian 4y ago
And that's how these things are going to start requiring motorcycle registrations to ride. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  They are not much different than 49cc mopeds terms of speed, are they?
doubled112 4y ago
A child died in my city tobogganing last winter. Now the city posts tobogganing hills when they're too icy.
tomxor 4y ago
> If all you have (for both worldview & skills) is a hammer... Yup, it's a fishing expedition: > arguing that the helmet Molly wore was defective Really the bike and the helmet? what else is to blame, the hill? They may or may not have had any awareness their kid was going to ride on a friends e-bike - but this is the real issue, e-bikes are not much different to small motorbikes, powered cycles are one of the most dangerous modes of transport, society needs to start appropriately considering them as such.

NoPicklez 4y ago

There was absolutely a design flaw in bikes where the design of the front wheel quick release in combination with disc brakes in some cases could cause the quick release lever to go into the disc brakes causing sudden stoppage. This was addressed through an enormous recall from top end manufacturers. I don’t know if this bike also had the design flaw which made the wheel come loose. Having said that, the argument that without the motor the girls wouldn’t have been able to climb the hill and therefore the bike is bad is a terrible argument. After all, that’s why you buy e-bikes to take you where you normally can’t go. Don’t we buy a normal bikes to be able to travel at speeds you normally couldn’t on foot? The kids were under the recommended minimum age for the bike set by the manufacturer.

throwaway290 4y ago
> the argument that without the motor the girls wouldn’t have been able to climb the hill and therefore the bike is bad is a terrible argument I think it is a good argument. There is a difference between powered and unpowered vehicles. Unpowered vehicles are safer for you and for others since you are limited by your own body and it serves as a natural barrier. As soon as you add an engine into the mix to remove that limit, vehicle and the rider should be subject to very different rules and regulations out of concern for public safety. This is not happening because they are electric bikes, which is good for someone's OKRs. Use of electricity prompts many municipalities turn the blind eye to the fact that it has a motor, like a motorcycle, with corresponding problems.
- NoPicklez 4y ago
  But hang on… why did the parents buy them an e-bike if they didn’t want them to go where an e-bike could take them? Parents buy their kids dirt bikes to do jumps they couldn’t normally do, but they don’t sue Kawasaki because they broke their arm. I understand there are nuances to this, but there has to be some form of responsibility on the parents for buying their kids and knowingly letting them ride a bike that they knew had an engine in it. Disclaimer, I’m only addressing the part about the bike having an engine and that supposedly being a problem. Not any of their other arguments.

cainxinth 4y ago

Full disclosure, I have a Rad Power bike (mini 4), among many other bikes. It has a 750w motor and accelerates really fast if you give it the beans. It’s a dangerous vehicle if you don’t keep your wits about you. I never let my adult friends ride it without a stern safety briefing beforehand. So, first, why were an 11 and 12 year old allowed to use a powerful ebike unsupervised? On a big hill, no less. Rad says their bikes are for people 18 and up, yet the parents say the bike belonged to one of the kid’s 13 year old sister. Second, there is a tiny bit of skill involved in properly tightening a quick release; just because it came loose doesn’t rule out human error. Third, disc brakes and a quick release on the front wheel is a known safety hazard? A staggering number of bikes have that setup. If it’s truly as dangerous as the plaintiffs say, literally hundreds of thousands of bikes will need to be taken off the road. This is a tragic loss for that family, but I’m failing to see how Rad is to blame to the extent they allege.

rednerrus 4y ago
0-20 in 17 seconds doesn't seem that fast to me.
to11mtm 4y ago
> Third, disc brakes and a quick release on the front wheel is a known safety hazard? A staggering number of bikes have that setup. If it’s truly as dangerous as the plaintiffs say, literally hundreds of thousands of bikes will need to be taken off the road. I mean... OK QR Discs on front wheel is tricky, and was a weird 'elephant in the room' during my time as a shop mechanic. The problem is that forces involved will often result in the quick release mechanism loosening over time. This has been long known/documented [0]. They -can- be more dangerous than Vs or Canti's IMO. I know there was a recall within the last couple years somewhat related to this phenomenon; namely that some QR levers could 'open' too wide and get caught in the rotor. -if- Rad had such a QR, then yes it should not have been on the road. [1] [0] - https://www.sheldonbrown.com/disc-brakes.html https://www.sheldonbrown.com/disc-brakes.html [1] - https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2015/trek-recalls-bicycles-equipped-with-front-disc-brakes-to-replace-quick-release-lever https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2015/trek-recalls-bicycles-equi...
- 4y ago

paulgb 4y ago

Here's a reddit comment that I found insightful around the claimed issue with disk breaks in combination with quick release: https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/we4fgv/radpower_being_sued_over_death_of_12_year_old/iiny85a/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/we4fgv/radpower_bei... It links to this useful diagram: https://ibb.co/HP0HxVV https://ibb.co/HP0HxVV I'm not a bike expert, but I do notice that in comparison to my bike (which also has QR and disk breaks), the RadRunner 2's dropouts are more downward-facing. The lawsuit is dubious for a lot of reasons, but the point about quick release is more interesting than I expected.

doubled112 4y ago
I've never had a problem, but I've joked that all of my QR equipped bikes (which all have disc brakes) have "lawyer tabs" for years. Kids bikes have them too. It goes around the skewer into an additional small hole on the bike with the intent that it will hold if the QR is slightly loose. I don't think it would save you, but it is there. Check your wheel tightness once in a while, everybody.
- wjnc 4y ago
  I have been cycling sportively (MTB, road) for about two decades. Bounce your bike. Just a couple of bounces on the wheels. It’s just a thing where you would instantly notice any slack on the wheel tension.
  - doubled112 4y ago
    You can find a lot of issues really fast by simply looking and listening while picking up and dropping a bike. I've been doing it subconsciously for years.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Another trick: engage the brakes, one at the time and rock the bike forward and backward, any slop will instantly show up (sometimes in places where you really don't expect it).
- 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

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mensetmanusman 4y ago

This is part of the reason manufacturing is so expensive in the US.

tzs 4y ago
Not really. If you are selling vehicles (or most other products) in the US you can't escape liability by merely manufacturing the products outside the US. It is however a common excuse used by companies that want to move their manufacturing outside the US to save on labor, because saying "We were forced to because of frivolous lawsuits!" goes over a lot better than "We can make more money if we only have to pay a couple dollars an hour for labor".
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  There are apparently over 40 million lawsuits filed annually in the US alone, most involving businesses. I see it in my field at least (moving atoms instead of information), if you make anything and have any money, there is a target on your back if any mistake is made.

Steltek 4y ago

We stayed at an RV campground out west this summer and I was blown away by the number of kids on e-bikes, zooming around the campground. It was nearly 100% of all kids bikes there. I guess if you look at a bike as a toy that never sees any roads, it makes sense. But I wouldn't give my kids an e-bike for our city-folk trips around town. They don't have the tuned "street sense" yet to be watching traffic at high speed.

chiffre01 4y ago

After converting several bikes to ebikes from kits, it takes a lot of trial and error to get braking right. Obviously one of the most difficult and important parts of the bike is braking. I've tried different types of discs, pads as well as wired and hydraulic systems. And I agree with others posts here, higher quality pads with disc brakes make a big difference, but hydraulic systems are by far the best option for more stopping power. Most motorcycles use hydraulic systems for a reason and in my opinion ebikes are much closer to a motorcycle than a bike.

ejolto 4y ago
What are hydrophilic break systems? Do you mean hydraulic breaks?
- rascul 4y ago
  I was wondering the same thing. A web search did turn up something to lead me to believe that brake fluid is hydrophilic, though. Also, hydrophilic is a new word for me. https://www.repairsmith.com/blog/brake-fade/ https://www.repairsmith.com/blog/brake-fade/
  - chiffre01 4y ago
    Typo 'hydraulic brakes' was intended.
hajile 4y ago
An average motorcycle weighs 600 pounds while an average e-bike will weigh 50 pounds. The necessary stopping power between these is very different. An average motorcycle will have a contact patch with the ground that is many times larger than the contact patch of a bike. Even at high speeds, completely locking up a bike wheel with mechanical disk brakes is not very hard. The biggest issue is putting a 12 year old kid on an e-bike rated for adults with zero supervision and thinking nothing bad could possibly happen. In my opinion, these parents are suing because they can't stand the idea that their poor decision led to the death of their child.

cmpb 4y ago

Accidents on bikes happen, which is a generally accepted risk among parents. I think they'll have more luck with the helmet manufacturer lawsuit, given that the girl died of a head injury.

baybal2 4y ago

elil17 4y ago

The hill argument is silly, but the core of the lawsuit is a design issue with the bike. > The suit claims that the bike’s design made it hard for the girls to control their speed as they sped downhill, specifically because of where the steering axis is placed in relation to the front wheel. As the suit lays out, the bike in question—the RadRunner—has “disc brakes in conjunction with a quick-release mechanism for detaching the front wheel.” This setup is common on a wide range of bikes, and the Steinsapirs claim that it is “a known safety hazard in the industry.” The suit goes on to argue that the quick release came loose as Steinsapir’s friend was applying the front brake, which allegedly caused the wheel to wobble and ultimately caused the crash. I don't know if what they're saying is true, but if it is it's certainly something that's very reasonable to sue over.

afiori 4y ago
So it has very little to do with the "E" and a lot more with it being a bad bike
- elil17 4y ago
  I think they are also making claims about the "E" but the claims which seem valid to me are about the "bike."
pc86 4y ago
If it's a known safety hazard, and it's designed that way on a wide range of bikes, it sounds like the parents should have known about it and weighed that risk.
- elil17 4y ago
  I think it's ridiculous to expect people to do some sort of extensive research before they use a product. Should people who smoked before the surgeon general's warning not have been able to sue the tobacco companies who hid evidence around the dangers of smoking? It would be the same sort of thing from a legal perspective here if the parents claims are true.

deleted 4y ago

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Fradow 4y ago

The silliness of letting kids ride powerful e-bikes unsupervised as been well debated already. I'll just add that speed (20mph or about 32km/h) would actually classify that e-bike as a motorcycle on the other side of the pond (the limit for e-bike electric assist on roads is 25km/h, or about 15mph). > My main complaint about the RadWagon is that it doesn’t have hydraulic disc brakes, instead using a less effective mechanical version, which don’t have the stopping power that their more complicated counterparts do That part is bollocks. Sure, mechanical disk brakes are inferior to hydraulic brakes, but despite having less stopping power, properly maintained mechanical disk brakes can easily lock your wheels in any situation, including with road tires on dry asphalt (where you have the most grip). Note that I talk about first-hand experience. The limit to the stopping power for any disk brakes is generally going to be your tires, not the actual brake.

MarkusWandel 4y ago

Didn't the so-called "lawyer lips" (seriously) solve the front wheel detachment problem years ago? The point of a QR is to be able to pop the lever and out comes the wheel. But for liability reasons front fork dropouts now have extra protrusions that force you to unscrew the QR nut by several turns before you can, in fact, get the wheel out. Apparently not because newer disk-brake bikes now have thru-axles where the wheel can't pop out at all unless the axle is physically removed from the side. It would appear that having a heavy, powerful e-bike would benefit from having the best possible braking/wheel retention system available. But still, whatever happened to responsible use? If a 10 year old gets hold of the car keys and goes for a joyride, sue the car maker?

acdha 4y ago

The owner’s manual point runs me the wrong way, too — describing it as “page 49 out of 57” makes it sound like it’s buried in the back rather than prominently in the safety section which the first page tells you to read. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0799/9645/files/om_run20s1_usa_en_cb_v1-005_up0.pdf?v=1615419791 https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0799/9645/files/om_run20s1... I agree with the assessment other people have made. This is a tragic situation and it seems like the parents are trying to deal with their grief by finding a bad guy other than their daughter’s best friend.

Overtonwindow 4y ago

I’m conflicted. When I was a kid it was not uncommon define 10-year-olds driving go carts and four wheelers. I was one of those kids. However, looking back on that, it was pretty dangerous for a 10-year-old to be in a go cart. And I think it’s dangerous for 12 year old to be using an electric bicycle. I’m conflicted between a child doing something maybe they shouldn’t be doing, and being injured, versus an actual defect with the product. If there is a defect with the steering, then the company is liable. However, if there is no defect, and the company acted in good faith and produced a good product that led to an unfortunate death, then I would have a difficult time blaming it all on the company.

derkades 4y ago
For a child, a 4 wheeled kart with speed limit (say 15km/h) is a lot of fun and still very safe. Unlike a bike, maintaining balance is not required.
hajile 4y ago
ATVs should be outright banned. Almost 75% of fatal ATV accidents are solo wrecks. They average 135,000 injuries and 700 fatalities per year despite all-time record sale being around 300,000 units per year. That is HALF of all ATVs bought getting into accidents each year. Bikes are MUCH safer. 96% of bicycle fatalities involve a car hitting a bike. The number of bike accidents are around the same as ATV (600-1000 on average) and the number of injuries is similar (about 130,000), but the number of bikes sold per year is about 20,000,000 units or almost 70x higher.

BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 4y ago

When shopping for a bike, I take it down a steep hill to see how it handles at speed. Not every bike does well. Don't know about the bike in question. I do remember the hill. Anyway the manufacturer's lawyers will point out that the bike was not properly assembled (and I bet there's plenty of lawyer approved language about securing the wheels). The other kid's parents will be joined to the lawsuit for improper assembly and supervision. I remember school safety lessons telling us never to ride with another kid on the bike. The extra weight combined with the lack of strength (to control and apply brakes) in the kid driving the bike put the situation beyond the kid's capabilities.

nikau 4y ago

This is likely user error when reinstalling the wheel. QR axles use a cam lever to apply high clamping force to hold the wheel in place. It's not unheard of for inexperienced users to just turn the lever tight without using the cam which doesn't apply enough clamping force causing the wheel to come loose.

thewileyone 4y ago

Tragic loss but its lawyers responding to personal grief, litigate first.

binbashthefash 4y ago

Well we can't hold manufacturers accountable when a 12 year old is killed by AR-15s so i don't see why we care about a bike.