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How many EU beaureaucrats got their training in East Germany, I wonder? Or is it rather that they are too young and do not know about/remember what constant sur

How many EU beaureaucrats got their training in East Germany, I wonder? Or is it rather that they are too young and do not know about/remember what constant surveillance does to trust in a society?

peoplefromibiza 4y ago
[flagged]
- mantas 4y ago
  Silly fear of communism/socialism? :) Why would we be afraid of the thing that messed up with us for 50 years? :) It's funny when Westerners who have no practical experience talk down to us how we should throw away our practical experience...
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - mantas 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
        [flagged]
      - DubiousPusher 4y ago
        [flagged]
        mantas 4y ago
        I know that part. But in this case another user, who seems to be european, calls my experience in Eastern europe „American paranoia“. It feels like some people have such a strong irrational love for certain political system that they can't accept that some people dislike it for valid reasons. Maybe actual American paranoia is when people blame US of A for whatever when their arguments run out.
    - davidro80 4y ago
- HeckFeck 4y ago
  > there is no constant surveillance in Europe CCTV? I would also be extremely surprised to learn that European agencies don't have access to the Five Eyes program, or even their own analogue. Face it, every state wants a hand in the big data gravy train. Especially organisations like the EU that believe their regulation, centralisation and bureaucracy is an unquestionable good.
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    they can't use it unless authorized and no, there is no single evidence that EU is engaged in massive surveillance on their citizens. Also because, for those who don't know, EU cannot do it by itself. It depends from the legislation of every single member. So I'm sure in Poland and Hungary they are trying to do it against political opposition, but I'm also sure that in my Country it is not happening (I know people working for that department, it's mostly because incompetence and laser focus on other threats like terrorism and organized crime, which we are pretty good at preventing) And most of all as European I support the idea that EU should protect interests of EU, where 450 million people live. It's bad enough we have to witness and pay the consequences of a war at our borders because Americans did nothing to prevent it, that we have to allow them to have their military bases on our soil, that they are now sending more troops to said bases, let's at least have our own regulations created by, let's remember this fact too, elected representatives of the European population.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- djbebs 4y ago
mantas 4y ago
Rather a lot of them were young and naive left-wing supporters who looked at USSR through rose glasses. Wouldn't you want to be bureaucrat in late USSR? No threat of purges above you, only endless opportunity to play with your minions as you see fit.
- ginko 4y ago
  > Rather a lot of them were young and naive left-wing supporters who looked at USSR through rose glasses. The EC is dominated by conservatives.
  - mantas 4y ago
    How many of those who you call conservatives where left-wing when young? Maybe they changed some views, but retained the love of total control :) I'm not sure about current EC, but the one under Juncker had plenty of far-left-when-young people. Far left as in Marxist and Maoist in 1970s-1980s. P.S. Fun story from ex-USSR country... At the very end of USSR, it was USSR apparatchiks who were called conservatives :)
- immibis 4y ago
  Believe it or not, the late USSR bureaucracy was anything but left-wing. It only held onto the name through inertia, greatly muddying the definitions of left- and right-wing. I believe the most accurate description is that left-wing are ideas emphasizing equality and right-wing are ideas emphasizing hierarchy/inequality. On the extreme end one way you have anarchist ideals (everyone is equal because everyone has full ability to do everything they want) but you also have some failed states (everyone is equal because everyone ekes out a miserable existence). On the other end you have, well, Hitler, dictatorships, and yes, literal bureaucracy, which is just a dictatorship hierarchy by another name.
  - mantas 4y ago
    Depends how you define left wing. It was highly collectivist and little private property. It was also working hard on building the new homo sovieticus. And the idea of world domination never really went away. It was also equally poor, especially if you skip party elite. Capital was not a thing. Well, social capital did play a big role :) I can’t agree that left wing is for equality while right wing is anti-equality. Unless you’re talking about equality of outcomes, which is madness IMO. I’d rather say that left is for equality and right wing is for fairness. Equality leads to unfair outcomes for better-equipped. While fair treatment leads to unequal results. Both has pros and cons.

How many EU beaureaucrats got their training in East Germany, I wonder? Or is it rather that they are too young and do not know about/remember what constant surveillance does to trust in a society?

peoplefromibiza 4y ago

[flagged]

mantas 4y ago
Silly fear of communism/socialism? :) Why would we be afraid of the thing that messed up with us for 50 years? :) It's funny when Westerners who have no practical experience talk down to us how we should throw away our practical experience...
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - mantas 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
      [flagged]
    - DubiousPusher 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - mantas 4y ago
        I know that part. But in this case another user, who seems to be european, calls my experience in Eastern europe „American paranoia“. It feels like some people have such a strong irrational love for certain political system that they can't accept that some people dislike it for valid reasons. Maybe actual American paranoia is when people blame US of A for whatever when their arguments run out.
  - davidro80 4y ago
HeckFeck 4y ago
> there is no constant surveillance in Europe CCTV? I would also be extremely surprised to learn that European agencies don't have access to the Five Eyes program, or even their own analogue. Face it, every state wants a hand in the big data gravy train. Especially organisations like the EU that believe their regulation, centralisation and bureaucracy is an unquestionable good.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  they can't use it unless authorized and no, there is no single evidence that EU is engaged in massive surveillance on their citizens. Also because, for those who don't know, EU cannot do it by itself. It depends from the legislation of every single member. So I'm sure in Poland and Hungary they are trying to do it against political opposition, but I'm also sure that in my Country it is not happening (I know people working for that department, it's mostly because incompetence and laser focus on other threats like terrorism and organized crime, which we are pretty good at preventing) And most of all as European I support the idea that EU should protect interests of EU, where 450 million people live. It's bad enough we have to witness and pay the consequences of a war at our borders because Americans did nothing to prevent it, that we have to allow them to have their military bases on our soil, that they are now sending more troops to said bases, let's at least have our own regulations created by, let's remember this fact too, elected representatives of the European population.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
djbebs 4y ago

mantas 4y ago

Rather a lot of them were young and naive left-wing supporters who looked at USSR through rose glasses. Wouldn't you want to be bureaucrat in late USSR? No threat of purges above you, only endless opportunity to play with your minions as you see fit.

ginko 4y ago
> Rather a lot of them were young and naive left-wing supporters who looked at USSR through rose glasses. The EC is dominated by conservatives.
- mantas 4y ago
  How many of those who you call conservatives where left-wing when young? Maybe they changed some views, but retained the love of total control :) I'm not sure about current EC, but the one under Juncker had plenty of far-left-when-young people. Far left as in Marxist and Maoist in 1970s-1980s. P.S. Fun story from ex-USSR country... At the very end of USSR, it was USSR apparatchiks who were called conservatives :)
immibis 4y ago
Believe it or not, the late USSR bureaucracy was anything but left-wing. It only held onto the name through inertia, greatly muddying the definitions of left- and right-wing. I believe the most accurate description is that left-wing are ideas emphasizing equality and right-wing are ideas emphasizing hierarchy/inequality. On the extreme end one way you have anarchist ideals (everyone is equal because everyone has full ability to do everything they want) but you also have some failed states (everyone is equal because everyone ekes out a miserable existence). On the other end you have, well, Hitler, dictatorships, and yes, literal bureaucracy, which is just a dictatorship hierarchy by another name.
- mantas 4y ago
  Depends how you define left wing. It was highly collectivist and little private property. It was also working hard on building the new homo sovieticus. And the idea of world domination never really went away. It was also equally poor, especially if you skip party elite. Capital was not a thing. Well, social capital did play a big role :) I can’t agree that left wing is for equality while right wing is anti-equality. Unless you’re talking about equality of outcomes, which is madness IMO. I’d rather say that left is for equality and right wing is for fairness. Equality leads to unfair outcomes for better-equipped. While fair treatment leads to unequal results. Both has pros and cons.