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Norway: an Eden with wifi
- vetler 15y agoWe still complain. About the high prices. How short the summer is. The cold. The rain. The snow. All the people on welfare. That we can't buy beer after 18:00 om weekdays and 20:00 on Saturdays (and not at all on Sundays). Norway might not be very exciting, though. After all, we're only 5 million people, which is like half of Paris. Although I don't work there anymore, Opera is hiring[0], and it has a multinational workforce and English is the working language. Other benefits not mentioned in the article is 5 weeks paid vacation and Norwegian management style[1]. [0]: http://www.opera.com/company/jobs/ http://www.opera.com/company/jobs/ [1]: http://www.worldbusinessculture.com/Norwegian-Management-Style.html http://www.worldbusinessculture.com/Norwegian-Management-Sty...
- duck 15y agoI have to ask, how hard would it be for an American to get a job in Norway (lets say at Opera) and move their family there?
- hmottestad 15y agoProbably not that hard. However you'd probably be going down a lot in salary, the top 95th percentile for people with masters in technical subjects is around 800 000 NOK or 138 000 usd, but the average is around 550 000. Considering a cheap apartment with 2 bedrooms costs minimum 2 000 000 nok. A bus ticket starts at 28 nok about 5 usd.
- strictfp 15y agoYou might also want to consider the 35 days of payed holiday that you get, the generous parenting leaves and healthcare and pension packages, as well as the higher tax :)
- hmottestad 15y agoIt's only 25 days, or 4 weeks and 1 day. The payment part is just a percentage of what you earned the previous year. So the first year I start working after college I will not get paid during my holidays. Parenting leaves are very important since it is assumed that women should work and not stay home with the children. We also have subsidized kindergartens. Healthcare is fair. However we have pretty much no dental and you only get subsidized medication if you need medication for more than 3 months. Pension is ok, however it's just an economical model where you deduct peoples salaries and force them to save money. And yes, taxes are very high: 25% VAT High income tax Wealth tax and also housing tax
- tallanvor 15y ago25 days is the legal minimum. My employer gives 30 days paid vacation. Some companies also handle holiday pay slightly differently (while still complying with the law), so it's possible to get paid while you are on vacation - I did. You have to have a lot of money before the wealth tax hits you, and it's quite low anyway (if you have enough money that the wealth tax will hit you, you can earn more in interest having the money sitting in a bank account than you will be paying).
- vetler 15y agoOpera does have a few Americans working there, including at least one who moved his entire family there (even his dogs, I believe). Yes, you'd might go down in salary, as hmottestad mentions, so there are pros and cons. People do live fine here on their salaries, so I don't think it would be a problem.
- tallanvor 15y agoIT workers are in demand in Norway, so if you're skilled, it's generally not too hard to get a job here. And the pay is decent - sure you might find some jobs that pay more in the States, but you're not going to starve here. My pay actually jumped by about 50% when I moved here. Things are more expensive here, of course, but not everything is a lot more expensive - renting an apartment here is similar to prices you'd expect in New York. I've never had a problem with healthcare, but off hand I don't know any company that provides dental coverage or vision plans. The hardest part is the language. --Everyone can speak English here, but, like anywhere, the more of the local language you speak, the easier it is.
- karipatila 15y agoAll of your negative points remind me of Finland. Perhaps all of us Nordic folk suffer from some von Trier-ish ailment, where we focus on what's wrong instead of how good we have it here.
- _delirium 15y agoOddly, from what I can tell, von Trier's native Denmark doesn't seem to suffer from it: it seems to always top lists of people happy with their country's situation, and talking in person to Danes, it is nearly impossible to get anyone to admit that there's anything non-great about Denmark...
- laut 15y agoIt is very common for people to complain in Denmark. I left the country, but if you want I can still complain about it ;)
- _delirium 15y agoHmm, maybe I get a different view because I'm a foreigner living in Denmark, but the Danes I know seem strangely patriotic! Not necessarily in a nationalist way, but in a way that's sort of civic-minded and non-cynical: proud to be Danish and think that the way things are done in Denmark is generally a good way to do them. Very different than most people I knew in U.S. universities, who were very cynical about the U.S. society/government.
- bitsoda 15y agoImposing a nation-wide "fat tax" is definitely something Denmark does wrong. Folks who regularly consume foods high in saturated fats will be penalized -- presumably based off fat-phobic, bunk science. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2096185,00.html http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2096185,00.htm...
- laut 15y agoYou write "civic-minded" and "non-cynical", I read "nationalist" and "naive" ;) But perhaps I am cynical. Are the Danes you know students? Among the minority in Denmark that works full time in the private sector, there is discontent with how the system works.
- EiZei 15y agoHonestly I have never failed to meet people complaining about prices anywhere and as far as weather goes even the Russians and Lithuanians seem to do that. That being said I wish I was a Finnish taxi driver in Norway instead of a Finnish taxi driver in Finland. ;(
- tikhonj 15y agoHah, I've even heard people complaining about the weather here in the Silicon Valley. That and real estate prices, but the latter complaints are warranted.
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- SamReidHughes 15y agoI lived in San Diego before I moved to Mountain View, and I can confirm that the weather here is indeed horrid. :)
- iaskwhy 15y agoSlightly (or completely) off-topic but you really are a taxi driver? I'm curious why you read HN and how you found it.
- Sukotto 15y agoI meant to vote you up and hit the wrong arrow. Sorry :(
- mdaniel 15y agoI see this a fair bit and wonder if moving the arrows further apart (formally by PG or using GreaseMonkey in the interim) has been discussed? I don't have any down arrows, otherwise I would post code instead of just a suggestion. I absolutely would love to see the arrows resized when viewing using a mobile device.
- afterburner 15y agoYou're probably justified in your complaints about prices; Norway has higher prices than almost anywhere in Europe.
- Rastafarian 15y agoOnly Europe? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index#Figures http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index#Figures
- vetler 15y agoNorway, and Oslo in particular, is one of the most expensive places in the world, and prices are often discussed in the media. However, I read recently that although we like to complain about food prices, they are not very high when compared to our income. Of course, the Big Mac index clearly shows that food can be very expensive. In general, all fast food is expensive. This is probably in part because there's no such thing as cheap labor here.
- winter_blue 15y agoWhy do you complain about people in welfare? (I think it's a good thing that a country provides welfare to its people like Norway does.)
- latch 15y agoI've lived in a country with good social services and one with less good social services. They both have their ups and downs. The problem with social services as a system, is the same problem as with any system: people game it. I assume in Norway it's no different. Employed feel that the [some] of the unemployed are lazy and taking advantage of the system.
- __rkaup__ 15y agoIt's worth a mention that this is a common complaint in the UK. We've even had a few government ads run railing against "benefits fraud."
- vetler 15y agoSome people take advantage of it. People who don't use it might feel like they're paying for lazy bums. Personally I like to think most people aren't on welfare voluntarily. I recently read somewhere that Norwegians are some of the most gullible people in the world though. YMMV.
- swah 15y agoThe bad behaviours it encourages: having another child to receive state support, don't look for jobs if you expect to be paid less than the what the govt pays unemployed folks, etc.
- sigvef 15y agoThough not important to the essence of your post, I would like to point out that beer is sold until 20:00 on weekdays and 18:00 on Saturdays, not the other way around.
- barredo 15y ago> “We’ve become spoiled,” one Norwegian told me. “Lazy,” said another. “Petroholics,” diagnosed a third." Does the Norwegian society as a whole feel this way? What about other oil-prosperous small countries such as the Emirates or Kuwait? Are the cases comparables? What are the Norwegian govt plans for the long-time future when their oil is over? (it's long for that, i know).
- iaskwhy 15y agoTo start, they seem to have invested heavily in renewable energy sources. Citing Wikipedia: "Electricity generation in Norway is almost entirely from hydroelectric power plants." I believe that's more than you can say for any other country and it's one of the best ways to invest oil money I'd say.
- TobbenTM 15y agoThat's mostly because we have the opportunity to run hydroelectric plants very easily, with all our mountains and water.
- iaskwhy 15y agoYou know, you could say the same about lots of other countries and they don't do it, they invest in highways and other kinds of waste. Think of my home country, Portugal: we have mountains and rivers everywhere, we have the ocean, we have Europe's most dry land (Alentejo) and how much of our energy is renewable? 45%. And in 2005 it was around 15%. It could have been like Norway since the nineties...
- lemming 15y agoNew Zealand is similar - the majority of electricity generation is hydro. We're similar in that we have a lot of mountains and a small population.
- wilhelm 15y agoThat predates the discovery of oil. A significant portion of the major hydroelectric power plants were built around 1910. We didn't have much coal, but our country looks like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Odda_frå_fly.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Odda_frå_... The town on the picture (Odda, Hordaland) was a major center of industry, thanks to the cheap power.
- patrickk 15y agoRemarkable story of an Iraqi geologist who helped Norway spread the oil wealth around: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/99680a04-92a0-11de-b63b-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1eBlRc5lt http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/99680a04-92a0-11de-b63b-00144...
- zacharypinter 15y agoAnd the related planet money podcast: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/08/26/139972557/the-friday-podcast-norways-got-advice-for-libya http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/08/26/139972557/the-frid...
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- Zirro 15y ago"From Norway, even Sweden now looks gritty and hardscrabble, like something out of a Stieg Larsson novel." Now, this is a case of national pride of course, but it really sounds like the author has heard just one side of a story here. My impression is that Sweden and Norway (like the other Scandinavian countries) are about equal in most aspects. That's not wrong, is it?
- Rastafarian 15y agoI'd say it's wrong. There are more than 200K Swedes currently residing and working in Norway. Not only young people working no-skill jobs for $140 a day, but also many scientists, IT pros/developers, managers, entrepreneurs. I've lived and worked in both countries and while Sweden feels like one of the rich US states or parts of EU, Norway has out of this world standard of living. Can give you countless examples. A neighbour of mine was a single father of three children, the government (NAV) was paying his rent, bills, other expenses, vacation(!), etc. for almost a year. That was social help not based on previous taxes or income. Most Norwegians (IMH experience) who are serious about gaming would work one year and live the next year on the extremely generous unemployment benefits provided by NAV.
- vetler 15y ago200K swedes? Do you have a reference for that number? I've heard lower numbers. Here's an article (in Norwegian) from 2009 saying it's just under 80 000: http://www.hegnar.no/personlig_okonomi/article391433.ece http://www.hegnar.no/personlig_okonomi/article391433.ece
- anghyflawn 15y agoYep, 200K sounds a bit too many: Statistics Norway shows under 70K Scandinavians (not just Swedes) as of 01/01/11 http://ssb.no/emner/02/01/10/innvbef/tab-2011-04-28-08.html http://ssb.no/emner/02/01/10/innvbef/tab-2011-04-28-08.html You probably have to add some commuters, but they will hardly change the big picture.
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- winter_blue 15y ago"Still, there are worse places in the world." Really? (Are there truly places more wealthy/luxurious than this?)
- umarmung 15y agoHe meant the opposite. But to answer your question: Liechtenstein and Luxembourg? So, for all intents and purposes, no... At least, not for anyone who is not already ridiculously rich already and therefore you could live anywhere anyway.
- andreash 15y agoI've lived most of my 24 years in Norway, but the lack of a proper startup eco-system (successful entrepreneurs, VCs and companies etc.) motivates me to move to Silicon Valley in a few years. Am I stupid, or just adventurous? :p
- gindevine 15y agoI have the opposite opinion. I've never experienced the system first-hand myself, but I know of a few who have. To me, it seems that as long as you have a business idea and actually check if it's possible to maintain, there's a lot of governmental and non-governmental organizations who'll support you financially. I think Silicon Valley would be harder to start in, if not only for the (seemingly) fierce competition for VCs' money and because you might have to pay for the health insurance of your employees.
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- amac 15y agoAt one time, I had similar thoughts e.g you have to move to another place (usually a large city) to be successful in business. Then, I figured out that by whatever billionaire list or financial metric you choose to look at e.g Forbes, FT - nearly all entrepreneurs started out in the city/country they were born in. Travel is obviously good to broaden your experiences in life, but it appears that starting your business in the place you're from is more often the best way to succeed.
- guruz 15y agoI lived and worked in Oslo, Norway for the three last years. It was nice, but eventually got boring. And the dark winters were depressive. Living in Berlin now, feels like a much more vivid city with a much more heterogenous society. Norway is very collectivistic.
- Gatsky 15y agoI agree, I think rumours of a Norwegian utopia are greatly exaggerated. Is anyone really serious when they evince Scandanavia-envy?
- lobo_tuerto 15y agoFor me it's the other way around. I grew up in Mexico, now working & living in Berlin, but I'd like to travel north and if possible stay for a time in Norway.
- bborud 15y agoThe article leaves out the most important aspect of Norwegian society: the distribution of wealth is fairly even. The difference between the affluent and less affluent is fairly small.
- mmagin 15y agoOn the subject of Norway, I can't resist recommending the brilliant dystopian sci-fi film The Bothersome Man. It complements that essay nicely.