5 ms·

Maybe in States, but not in the majority of the world. Definetly not in Europe.

by eps 4y ago

dalbasal 4y ago
There are plenty of European parts where you cannot rent a car or book a hotel without visa or mastercard. Meanwhile, for a business, either of these refusing to work with you will likely kill the business on the spot. The differences between Europe and US corporatism is petty narcissism of small differences.
- alangibson 4y ago
  > book a hotel without visa or mastercard. Maybe major chains. There are vast numbers of small-holder rentals that happily take cash. > Meanwhile, for a business, either of these refusing to work with you will likely kill the business on the spot. It's 100% possible to do business in Europe purely with bank transfer. I've been at it for years and I never interact with either Visa or Mastercard.
  - kmlx 4y ago
    small business, sure. big business, no chance.
  - dalbasal 4y ago
    You are missing the point. Yes, there are transactions that occur in cash, bank transfer & such. Fail to present a Visa/MC when you rent a car in Dublin or Brussels and you will be in for a surprise. In Dublin, standard practice is to compromise by making you pay a 5X rate... insurance or whatnot. Maybe there is a no-card option somewhere in the city, but it certainly isn't most places. Yes, you can be an electrician or consultant without accepting cards. No, it is not practically possible to run a store or most customer facing businesses. Even most electricians and consultants accept or at least use cards. There's no meaningful difference between Europe and the US. This is a powerful and hard to avoid duopoly.
    - lodovic 4y ago
      There is a major difference: VISA and mastercard offer credit cards. Not many people use credit cards in Europe, they are all debit cards. Most stores I know do not accept credit cards at all, you have to have a debit card. You can easily refuse someone credit and scrap their credit card. It is a lot harder to deny someone access to their savings.
      - dalbasal 4y ago
        Most international (and even local only) european debit cards are owned or serviced by Visa and Mastercard. A store isn't denying people either Debit or Credit. It's only denying them bananas & laundry detergent. This is totally tangential, but I would actually argue that denying someone access to their credit is not that different. Credit is what money is. Our European attitudes towards debt and credit is intensely responsible for our two tier system. Credit for the rich. Debit for the poor. Policy debate about where and how the border between these two should be.
    - desas 4y ago
      I wonder if it differs across Europe. In the UK at least, you are very right. Debit cards run via the visa and mastercard networks and every store that accepts debit cards also accept credit cards.
      - zyx321 4y ago
        German banks are stubbornly clinging to their Giro cards, much to the inconvenience of iPhone users. The cards are usually Maestro-compatible, but domestic transactions use the domestic system.
        WhyNotHugo 4y ago
        I'm sure the privacy aspect of it must be very tricky; Apple collects a lot of information when using Apple Pay, and I can imagine that German banks might be hesitant to share such granular details. Here in NL Apple Pay works fine with a lot of banks -- and they're still just Maestro cards.
oarabbus_ 4y ago
I think the point being made is about banned by your region's major payment processing corporations, not specifically Visa or Mastercard. Any statement about a "majority of the world" would need to apply to India, China, and the African continent to be true. In China being banned from Alipay or similar would presumably have the same or even worse effect. India's attempt to go cashless some years back disproportionately affected those without plastic or digital payment cards, further emphasizing the point. I don't know too much about payment systems in Africa but my understanding is that mobile payment services have been heavily adopted and if a major payment corporation in the region banned an individual it would have a drastic negative effect on their livelihood. If corporate-issued payment devices are easy to do without in Europe it would seem to be the exception, not the rule.
Mashimo 4y ago
> Definetly not in Europe. Denmark and probably other Scandinavian countries almost never deal with cash any more. Everything is by card (Visa) or MobilePay (an app connected to your card) If the card would stop working you would have a hard time.
- qw 4y ago
  When you pay by card in a Norwegian store, you probably use a card that supports BankAxept (since 1991). In that case the payment will be made through the banks, instead of through Visa. 3 of 4 payments go through BankAxept. Cards issued by banks will often combine BankAxept and Visa/MC on the same card, so that users don't need a separate Visa card. The terminal will switch to BankAxept if available automatically. This is done transparently, so there are no issues with using it as a Visa card outside Norway.
  - kzrdude 4y ago
    As a Swede, why don't we have this, it's a good solution for customers and merchants.
    - qw 4y ago
      There are still some fees involved of course, but they are much lower and typically a fixed price. One article I read says that BankAxept is cheaper than Visa for transactions over 30 NOK (~3 USD), but the information may be out of date.
      - kzrdude 4y ago
        I realize that what we have in the EU is some regulation to put caps on the fees. It's better than it used to be. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/fees-for-card-based-payments.html https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/fees-for-...
- Gare 4y ago
  Thankfully, there is initiative for digital euro: https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/digital_euro/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/digital_euro/html/index.en.ht...
sschueller 4y ago
No, VISA has recently managed to kill Maestro and is taking over. Even the Swiss post bank is now issuing visa debit cards instead of the previous Postfinace cards which only worked in a limited number of ATMs.
- Cederfjard 4y ago
  Also, Maestro is a Mastercard brand.
- eps 4y ago
  In Switzerland it's still possible to buy things online and pay by an enclosed invoice. Twint is a local digital payment system and it is universally accepted, both online and offline.
  - sschueller 4y ago
    Twint takes 2% from vendors. This is also why you can't generate a code to have your friend pay you but instead have to enter their phone number since those transactions are free. In 1-2 years we will have instant IBAN payments, I wonder how long until there is a fee for that as well which is currently free just takes a day.
miohtama 4y ago
The EU has a right to basic bank account and debit card. Visa or MasterCard cannot refuse.
- Deukhoofd 4y ago
  That right is not absolute, payment providers can reject you based on laws regarding money laundering and terrorism financing. Not something the average person needs to be worried about however. > Member States shall ensure that credit institutions refuse an application for a payment account with basic features where opening such an account would result in an infringement of the provisions on the prevention of money laundering and the countering of terrorist financing laid down in Directive 2005/60/EC. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32014L0092 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32...
  - miohtama 4y ago
    Another note that companies do not have a right for a bank account. Overcompliance and compliance theater is getting so bad, so that even normal small enterprises are starting to have issues. Banks just do not want to onboard small businesses because the life time value of a small business bank account is negative.

Maybe in States, but not in the majority of the world. Definetly not in Europe.

by eps 4y ago

Maybe in States, but not in the majority of the world. Definetly not in Europe.

There are plenty of European parts where you cannot rent a car or book a hotel without visa or mastercard. Meanwhile, for a business, either of these refusing to work with you will likely kill the business on the spot. The differences between Europe and US corporatism is petty narcissism of small differences.

alangibson 4y ago
> book a hotel without visa or mastercard. Maybe major chains. There are vast numbers of small-holder rentals that happily take cash. > Meanwhile, for a business, either of these refusing to work with you will likely kill the business on the spot. It's 100% possible to do business in Europe purely with bank transfer. I've been at it for years and I never interact with either Visa or Mastercard.
- kmlx 4y ago
  small business, sure. big business, no chance.
- dalbasal 4y ago
  You are missing the point. Yes, there are transactions that occur in cash, bank transfer & such. Fail to present a Visa/MC when you rent a car in Dublin or Brussels and you will be in for a surprise. In Dublin, standard practice is to compromise by making you pay a 5X rate... insurance or whatnot. Maybe there is a no-card option somewhere in the city, but it certainly isn't most places. Yes, you can be an electrician or consultant without accepting cards. No, it is not practically possible to run a store or most customer facing businesses. Even most electricians and consultants accept or at least use cards. There's no meaningful difference between Europe and the US. This is a powerful and hard to avoid duopoly.
  - lodovic 4y ago
    There is a major difference: VISA and mastercard offer credit cards. Not many people use credit cards in Europe, they are all debit cards. Most stores I know do not accept credit cards at all, you have to have a debit card. You can easily refuse someone credit and scrap their credit card. It is a lot harder to deny someone access to their savings.
    - dalbasal 4y ago
      Most international (and even local only) european debit cards are owned or serviced by Visa and Mastercard. A store isn't denying people either Debit or Credit. It's only denying them bananas & laundry detergent. This is totally tangential, but I would actually argue that denying someone access to their credit is not that different. Credit is what money is. Our European attitudes towards debt and credit is intensely responsible for our two tier system. Credit for the rich. Debit for the poor. Policy debate about where and how the border between these two should be.
  - desas 4y ago
    I wonder if it differs across Europe. In the UK at least, you are very right. Debit cards run via the visa and mastercard networks and every store that accepts debit cards also accept credit cards.
    - zyx321 4y ago
      German banks are stubbornly clinging to their Giro cards, much to the inconvenience of iPhone users. The cards are usually Maestro-compatible, but domestic transactions use the domestic system.
      - WhyNotHugo 4y ago
        I'm sure the privacy aspect of it must be very tricky; Apple collects a lot of information when using Apple Pay, and I can imagine that German banks might be hesitant to share such granular details. Here in NL Apple Pay works fine with a lot of banks -- and they're still just Maestro cards.

oarabbus_ 4y ago

I think the point being made is about banned by your region's major payment processing corporations, not specifically Visa or Mastercard. Any statement about a "majority of the world" would need to apply to India, China, and the African continent to be true. In China being banned from Alipay or similar would presumably have the same or even worse effect. India's attempt to go cashless some years back disproportionately affected those without plastic or digital payment cards, further emphasizing the point. I don't know too much about payment systems in Africa but my understanding is that mobile payment services have been heavily adopted and if a major payment corporation in the region banned an individual it would have a drastic negative effect on their livelihood. If corporate-issued payment devices are easy to do without in Europe it would seem to be the exception, not the rule.

Mashimo 4y ago

> Definetly not in Europe. Denmark and probably other Scandinavian countries almost never deal with cash any more. Everything is by card (Visa) or MobilePay (an app connected to your card) If the card would stop working you would have a hard time.

qw 4y ago
When you pay by card in a Norwegian store, you probably use a card that supports BankAxept (since 1991). In that case the payment will be made through the banks, instead of through Visa. 3 of 4 payments go through BankAxept. Cards issued by banks will often combine BankAxept and Visa/MC on the same card, so that users don't need a separate Visa card. The terminal will switch to BankAxept if available automatically. This is done transparently, so there are no issues with using it as a Visa card outside Norway.
- kzrdude 4y ago
  As a Swede, why don't we have this, it's a good solution for customers and merchants.
  - qw 4y ago
    There are still some fees involved of course, but they are much lower and typically a fixed price. One article I read says that BankAxept is cheaper than Visa for transactions over 30 NOK (~3 USD), but the information may be out of date.
    - kzrdude 4y ago
      I realize that what we have in the EU is some regulation to put caps on the fees. It's better than it used to be. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/fees-for-card-based-payments.html https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/fees-for-...
Gare 4y ago
Thankfully, there is initiative for digital euro: https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/digital_euro/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/digital_euro/html/index.en.ht...

sschueller 4y ago

No, VISA has recently managed to kill Maestro and is taking over. Even the Swiss post bank is now issuing visa debit cards instead of the previous Postfinace cards which only worked in a limited number of ATMs.

Cederfjard 4y ago
Also, Maestro is a Mastercard brand.
eps 4y ago
In Switzerland it's still possible to buy things online and pay by an enclosed invoice. Twint is a local digital payment system and it is universally accepted, both online and offline.
- sschueller 4y ago
  Twint takes 2% from vendors. This is also why you can't generate a code to have your friend pay you but instead have to enter their phone number since those transactions are free. In 1-2 years we will have instant IBAN payments, I wonder how long until there is a fee for that as well which is currently free just takes a day.

miohtama 4y ago

The EU has a right to basic bank account and debit card. Visa or MasterCard cannot refuse.

Deukhoofd 4y ago
That right is not absolute, payment providers can reject you based on laws regarding money laundering and terrorism financing. Not something the average person needs to be worried about however. > Member States shall ensure that credit institutions refuse an application for a payment account with basic features where opening such an account would result in an infringement of the provisions on the prevention of money laundering and the countering of terrorist financing laid down in Directive 2005/60/EC. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32014L0092 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32...
- miohtama 4y ago
  Another note that companies do not have a right for a bank account. Overcompliance and compliance theater is getting so bad, so that even normal small enterprises are starting to have issues. Banks just do not want to onboard small businesses because the life time value of a small business bank account is negative.