7 ms·

Email account deletion and recovery should be regulated by law. Nowadays it's an essential service - just imagine that electricity provider, ISP or anyone else

Email account deletion and recovery should be regulated by law. Nowadays it's an essential service - just imagine that electricity provider, ISP or anyone else is doing the same without any period of notice, nor ability to dispute the problem with a company's representative.

morninglight 4y ago
This is the most reasoned and constructive response that this event has produced. I hope your suggestion gets some political/legal traction.
- 9991 4y ago
  Poppycock, it’s just communism with extra steps. Google’s email server is not your email server just because you’ve come to depend on it. If you want your own server, build your own server.
  - EMIRELADERO 4y ago
    How far does that argument go? "$ELECTRICITY_COMPANY's power is not your power just because you've come to depend on it. If you want your own electricity, build your own infrastructure". Granted, most people here on HN would be able to deploy their own, but you can't ask that of the average citizen who just needs email.
    - dymk 4y ago
      I would hazard a guess that nobody on this forum has an alternate electric company they can go to. But there's dozens of search engines, and thousands of email providers that users can choose from, all competing for your business.
      - EMIRELADERO 4y ago
        Again, you know that, I know that, will your average non-techie person know that? This also isn't only about email. Their entire data was on the account.
        dymk 4y ago
        It took me 3 minutes to sign up on Protonmail. https://www.google.com/search?q=email+provider+service https://www.google.com/search?q=email+provider+service hundreds of options from the same page. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, "everybody" knows that. It doesn't just apply to computers - non-techies are familiar with the concept too. It's common sense.
        iforgotpassword 4y ago
        Err what? Non-technical people can have a hard time telling the difference between email and Gmail. They don't understand the difference of photos stored on their smartphone vs in the cloud.
      - robin_reala 4y ago
        I’m confused. Is this another USism that you can’t choose a power supplier?
        joecool1029 4y ago
        Some states Americans can change the generation company, but last mile company can't be changed. (the power lines either underground or on a pole). This is managed by whatever company (or sometimes rarely the municipality) operates in that region.
    - 9991 4y ago
      There's a long way from the physical infrastructure of power lines to somebody's website.
  - iamevn 4y ago
    Google makes this unnecessarily difficult for most people by preventing delivery to their users unless you jump through the right hoops.
    - 9991 4y ago
      Sounds like they’re not very good at email!
ISL 4y ago
I largely agree. There are many public utilities on the internet on which we each individually rely. Careful what you wish for, though. Ever tried to sign up for a public utility without your real name, personal identification, a physical address, or billing information?
- Xylakant 4y ago
  I sent a postcard last week without providing a senders address. I also bought the stamp with cash.
  - croon 4y ago
    Well, then you also don't need an email address, since you can just email from a random new one each time, so I think GP's point stands.
    - Xylakant 4y ago
      You can also set up a mailbox at any address and receive actual letters there, no registration required. Needs permission of the owner of the place, but that’s similar with email. There are many states around the world where you can buy a prepaid SIM card without registration and participate in the public phone network. No permission at all required, cash payment works. There is no direct connection between “public” utility and “requires registration.” But many public utilities consist in a delivery to a specific place (water, electricity) or want to charge you. So they need your address to perform their service.
  - _trampeltier 4y ago
    In Canton Zürich (Switzerland) the parlament argued, everybody has a smartphone today anyway, so for public transport, from now on it legal, the only way to buy a ticket is an App. Do it without an Google account. But a postcard is a good example. Even the badest murder / raper in a prison will get a postcard.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
_the_inflator 4y ago
I agree. I argue in this way since quite some time. Same goes for Apple, Facebook etc. In Germany there is also some sort of compulsory contracting, for example in regards to energy supply.
dymk 4y ago
Disagree. Google, Facebook, and Apple only seem like entrenched behemoths because this community grew up with them, and it's hard to imagine a world without them. But make no mistake, they're just as fragile as every other Standard Oil that's ever existed. Pay for an email service, and sue if you incur damages due to them terminating your service. Or run your own email server if you care to.
- EMIRELADERO 4y ago
  > But make no mistake, they're just as fragile as every other Standard Oil that's ever existed. You realize that Standard Oil was broken up by the courts through the Sherman Act, which is precisely the type of regulatory action you're arguing against, right?
  - dymk 4y ago
    No, the "precise" regulatory action being suggested was not breaking Google up, it was regulating account deletion.
    - EMIRELADERO 4y ago
      What I meant by "regulatory action" was "law passed by legislature and enforced by courts through public/private rights of action"
- notch656a 4y ago
  Aight, I paid for an e-mail service and now I had to sign the same agreement as google except I had to pay on top of that. What exactly can I sue them for that I couldn't sue google for? If I run my own server what fraction of clients and customers will actually get my mail rather than it being auto-filtered out as spam?
  - dymk 4y ago
    You're not paying Google anything. You know what they owe you? Nothing. You pay Company X to host your email, and you enter into a service agreement. They kick your account off. If they're in violation of the service agreement, now you actually have a case against them. They know this. Their legal council knows this.
gyulai 4y ago
> Email account deletion and recovery should be regulated by law. I think the problem goes even deeper than that. No non-state actor, who holds no democratic mandate of any kind, should hold the kind of power over citizens that Google holds. Regulation is a ship that has kind of sailed, in my mind. The kind of regulation that we now recognize we need would have had to be in place 20 years ago. ...mostly antitrust stuff, but also specialized things like privacy / data protection and "due process" for things like account suspensions etc. If such regulation had been in place, it would have prevented the formation of an entity such as Google in the first place, and we would instead have a healthy system of smaller players competing on who does the best job at providing the kinds of functions to society that Google provides. Now that we are in the unfortunate situation we are in, I think it might be necessary to consider nationalizing the whole thing and putting in place governance with a democratic mandate.

morninglight 4y ago

This is the most reasoned and constructive response that this event has produced. I hope your suggestion gets some political/legal traction.

9991 4y ago
Poppycock, it’s just communism with extra steps. Google’s email server is not your email server just because you’ve come to depend on it. If you want your own server, build your own server.
- EMIRELADERO 4y ago
  How far does that argument go? "$ELECTRICITY_COMPANY's power is not your power just because you've come to depend on it. If you want your own electricity, build your own infrastructure". Granted, most people here on HN would be able to deploy their own, but you can't ask that of the average citizen who just needs email.
  - dymk 4y ago
    I would hazard a guess that nobody on this forum has an alternate electric company they can go to. But there's dozens of search engines, and thousands of email providers that users can choose from, all competing for your business.
    - EMIRELADERO 4y ago
      Again, you know that, I know that, will your average non-techie person know that? This also isn't only about email. Their entire data was on the account.
      - dymk 4y ago
        It took me 3 minutes to sign up on Protonmail. https://www.google.com/search?q=email+provider+service https://www.google.com/search?q=email+provider+service hundreds of options from the same page. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, "everybody" knows that. It doesn't just apply to computers - non-techies are familiar with the concept too. It's common sense.
        iforgotpassword 4y ago
        Err what? Non-technical people can have a hard time telling the difference between email and Gmail. They don't understand the difference of photos stored on their smartphone vs in the cloud.
    - robin_reala 4y ago
      I’m confused. Is this another USism that you can’t choose a power supplier?
      - joecool1029 4y ago
        Some states Americans can change the generation company, but last mile company can't be changed. (the power lines either underground or on a pole). This is managed by whatever company (or sometimes rarely the municipality) operates in that region.
  - 9991 4y ago
    There's a long way from the physical infrastructure of power lines to somebody's website.
- iamevn 4y ago
  Google makes this unnecessarily difficult for most people by preventing delivery to their users unless you jump through the right hoops.
  - 9991 4y ago
    Sounds like they’re not very good at email!

ISL 4y ago

I largely agree. There are many public utilities on the internet on which we each individually rely. Careful what you wish for, though. Ever tried to sign up for a public utility without your real name, personal identification, a physical address, or billing information?

Xylakant 4y ago
I sent a postcard last week without providing a senders address. I also bought the stamp with cash.
- croon 4y ago
  Well, then you also don't need an email address, since you can just email from a random new one each time, so I think GP's point stands.
  - Xylakant 4y ago
    You can also set up a mailbox at any address and receive actual letters there, no registration required. Needs permission of the owner of the place, but that’s similar with email. There are many states around the world where you can buy a prepaid SIM card without registration and participate in the public phone network. No permission at all required, cash payment works. There is no direct connection between “public” utility and “requires registration.” But many public utilities consist in a delivery to a specific place (water, electricity) or want to charge you. So they need your address to perform their service.
- _trampeltier 4y ago
  In Canton Zürich (Switzerland) the parlament argued, everybody has a smartphone today anyway, so for public transport, from now on it legal, the only way to buy a ticket is an App. Do it without an Google account. But a postcard is a good example. Even the badest murder / raper in a prison will get a postcard.
  - jacquesm 4y ago

_the_inflator 4y ago

I agree. I argue in this way since quite some time. Same goes for Apple, Facebook etc. In Germany there is also some sort of compulsory contracting, for example in regards to energy supply.

dymk 4y ago

Disagree. Google, Facebook, and Apple only seem like entrenched behemoths because this community grew up with them, and it's hard to imagine a world without them. But make no mistake, they're just as fragile as every other Standard Oil that's ever existed. Pay for an email service, and sue if you incur damages due to them terminating your service. Or run your own email server if you care to.

EMIRELADERO 4y ago
> But make no mistake, they're just as fragile as every other Standard Oil that's ever existed. You realize that Standard Oil was broken up by the courts through the Sherman Act, which is precisely the type of regulatory action you're arguing against, right?
- dymk 4y ago
  No, the "precise" regulatory action being suggested was not breaking Google up, it was regulating account deletion.
  - EMIRELADERO 4y ago
    What I meant by "regulatory action" was "law passed by legislature and enforced by courts through public/private rights of action"
notch656a 4y ago
Aight, I paid for an e-mail service and now I had to sign the same agreement as google except I had to pay on top of that. What exactly can I sue them for that I couldn't sue google for? If I run my own server what fraction of clients and customers will actually get my mail rather than it being auto-filtered out as spam?
- dymk 4y ago
  You're not paying Google anything. You know what they owe you? Nothing. You pay Company X to host your email, and you enter into a service agreement. They kick your account off. If they're in violation of the service agreement, now you actually have a case against them. They know this. Their legal council knows this.

gyulai 4y ago

> Email account deletion and recovery should be regulated by law. I think the problem goes even deeper than that. No non-state actor, who holds no democratic mandate of any kind, should hold the kind of power over citizens that Google holds. Regulation is a ship that has kind of sailed, in my mind. The kind of regulation that we now recognize we need would have had to be in place 20 years ago. ...mostly antitrust stuff, but also specialized things like privacy / data protection and "due process" for things like account suspensions etc. If such regulation had been in place, it would have prevented the formation of an entity such as Google in the first place, and we would instead have a healthy system of smaller players competing on who does the best job at providing the kinds of functions to society that Google provides. Now that we are in the unfortunate situation we are in, I think it might be necessary to consider nationalizing the whole thing and putting in place governance with a democratic mandate.