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it's pretty stark for me: in 2010: > pull files from ftp or visual source safe > edit html/css files > upload ...then jquery came, helped normalise js cros

it's pretty stark for me: in 2010: > pull files from ftp or visual source safe > edit html/css files > upload ...then jquery came, helped normalise js cross browser. then sass, and simple build tools like gulp which i found useful and easy to manage. in 2022: > install git > setup git credentials > install node > install npm, yarn, npx....probably missing other package managers > run npm install > it fails for obscure reasons: deprecated packages, missing packages, incompatible node versions etc etc > try to fix all the myriad npm issues > npm install > npm run dev: failed docker not found... > install docker: cannot install > sudo install docker > not on sudoers list will be reported > create IT ticket for sudo access > 2 days later, install docker > run npm dev > make the edit > commit failed, you are 10 commits behind > try to merge, cannot automatically merge this is just a contrived example of all the added stuff we have to deal with which is NOT directly a part of what i need to do, edit some css or html or maybe tweak some js. javascript has completely changed the meaning of front-end. front end is really full stack javascript developer who can also build responsive for almost unlimited browsers/os's....whilst also being good at js/react/vue/redux state management performance and building fancy animations and transitions with css/svg, accessibility, typography....on and on it is a lot...the work itself might not be so hard based on your own exp, but the expecations on us are very high.

bryanrasmussen 4y ago
> install git > setup git credentials pretty much every developer job requires this nowadays, but of course the setup git credentials is often more complicated today than it was a few years ago with generate new ssh key and write in form field.
- fragmede 4y ago
  which, it really shouldn't be. Developers on GitHub have keys at https://github.com/<username>.keys https://github.com/<username>.keys, so I just add that to my server in the right places and new developers are off to the code mines (next to me).
hyperman1 4y ago
Isn't this mostly self-inflicted, though. The 2010 way works just as well today. * npm as a tool, sorry, it sucks. You got to replace all other languages with javascript, live with the consequences of that choice. * libraries/packages/... are easy to add but hard to maintain. Extremely fine-grained packages with no culture of long-term stability make this a lot worse. * I'd rather have git complain about a merge than spend time finding out which of file.html, file_old.html, file2.html file_new.html , ... are in use. Lucky you if only 1 file is the answer. * The whole 'programmers want to install tooling but the sysadmins wont let them' story goes back to at least the '80 ies. Devs on unix installed software in their home folder instead of letting responsible sysadmins install it system-wide (when the sysadmin has time and can be convinced it is usefull).
quickthrower2 4y ago
I am sure it wasn’t roses in 2010 but I het your point. One 2010 concern I remember was performance and opting for flash as a poor mans web socket and trying to figure out if sliverlight was the next thing or adobe flex! Anyway yeah the new NPM world causes a lot of pain. Module problems throw me as a sort of occasional enough to to deep dive into the topic but often enough to be a PITA. Usually things work with 3 techs but the 4th one buckled it. Eg React? Cool! Typescript? Cool! NextJS Cool! StoryBook … oh shit this ain’t gonna work. In a silo like .NET and especially in the 2008 heydey stuff just worked with other stuff. Even on .NET now it is complex as every old initiative still exists and you might have to use it hut there is a lot of new stuff. There are at least 3 versions of web programming paradigm. I just think we need fewer tech choices but that probably wont happen. The incentives are aligned to have a soup of competing options. It is great and bad at the same time. We are getting more done now. People are making SaaS in their spare time. That is amazing! Tell someone in 2010 that it is not only possible but cheap and commonplace to do so!
- 5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
  definitely wasn't roses. having to deal with a bunch of transparent gifs to for rounded buttons during the web 2.0 craze was a headache...but at least it was immediate, i was working directly in html and css and yes you're right the overall scene now is 100x better in terms of the open source community. many problems have been sold. it's more the tooling and layering of everything that is exhausting, and the ever expanding list of nuances and edge cases...
yobbo 4y ago
People were moving to version control for web sites in the late 90s when their projects started turning to chaos. Virtualization of servers started when the tooling became available around 2005. Linux containers were available, and used where it made sense, in 2010. The name Ajax dates from around 2005, and before that it was called "remote scripting". First version of Google Maps dates from this era, and would be called a ~SPA~ today. I think the difficulties you describe are caused by cargo-culting - being lured into using platforms/frameworks because their landing pages are just so damn glitzy, with little understanding. The visual surface of the web makes into a medium for fashion, and people are drawn to shiny things and vulnerable to fashions. What's needed are people who are both cold headed and have good taste.

bryanrasmussen 4y ago

> install git > setup git credentials pretty much every developer job requires this nowadays, but of course the setup git credentials is often more complicated today than it was a few years ago with generate new ssh key and write in form field.

fragmede 4y ago
which, it really shouldn't be. Developers on GitHub have keys at https://github.com/<username>.keys https://github.com/<username>.keys, so I just add that to my server in the right places and new developers are off to the code mines (next to me).

hyperman1 4y ago

Isn't this mostly self-inflicted, though. The 2010 way works just as well today. * npm as a tool, sorry, it sucks. You got to replace all other languages with javascript, live with the consequences of that choice. * libraries/packages/... are easy to add but hard to maintain. Extremely fine-grained packages with no culture of long-term stability make this a lot worse. * I'd rather have git complain about a merge than spend time finding out which of file.html, file_old.html, file2.html file_new.html , ... are in use. Lucky you if only 1 file is the answer. * The whole 'programmers want to install tooling but the sysadmins wont let them' story goes back to at least the '80 ies. Devs on unix installed software in their home folder instead of letting responsible sysadmins install it system-wide (when the sysadmin has time and can be convinced it is usefull).

quickthrower2 4y ago

I am sure it wasn’t roses in 2010 but I het your point. One 2010 concern I remember was performance and opting for flash as a poor mans web socket and trying to figure out if sliverlight was the next thing or adobe flex! Anyway yeah the new NPM world causes a lot of pain. Module problems throw me as a sort of occasional enough to to deep dive into the topic but often enough to be a PITA. Usually things work with 3 techs but the 4th one buckled it. Eg React? Cool! Typescript? Cool! NextJS Cool! StoryBook … oh shit this ain’t gonna work. In a silo like .NET and especially in the 2008 heydey stuff just worked with other stuff. Even on .NET now it is complex as every old initiative still exists and you might have to use it hut there is a lot of new stuff. There are at least 3 versions of web programming paradigm. I just think we need fewer tech choices but that probably wont happen. The incentives are aligned to have a soup of competing options. It is great and bad at the same time. We are getting more done now. People are making SaaS in their spare time. That is amazing! Tell someone in 2010 that it is not only possible but cheap and commonplace to do so!

5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
definitely wasn't roses. having to deal with a bunch of transparent gifs to for rounded buttons during the web 2.0 craze was a headache...but at least it was immediate, i was working directly in html and css and yes you're right the overall scene now is 100x better in terms of the open source community. many problems have been sold. it's more the tooling and layering of everything that is exhausting, and the ever expanding list of nuances and edge cases...

yobbo 4y ago

People were moving to version control for web sites in the late 90s when their projects started turning to chaos. Virtualization of servers started when the tooling became available around 2005. Linux containers were available, and used where it made sense, in 2010. The name Ajax dates from around 2005, and before that it was called "remote scripting". First version of Google Maps dates from this era, and would be called a ~SPA~ today. I think the difficulties you describe are caused by cargo-culting - being lured into using platforms/frameworks because their landing pages are just so damn glitzy, with little understanding. The visual surface of the web makes into a medium for fashion, and people are drawn to shiny things and vulnerable to fashions. What's needed are people who are both cold headed and have good taste.