14 ms·

Risk Everything (2007)

246 points by sutro 4y ago

jschveibinz 4y ago
Nice story. Thanks for sharing.
googlryas 4y ago
I take objection to this line: > When I share this story with other sailors, they are universally aghast that we helped these refugees. I wonder what kind of sailors they are conversing with, if at all.
- frobozz 4y ago
  Also: > The prevailing wisdom for this seafaring situation is “Don’t Stop.” The law is to render assistance. That law was based on prevailing wisdom. Apparently the author moves in different circles to the rest of seafaring folk.
  - mcv 4y ago
    I think it really depends on where you are. There are still many places in the world where piracy is real, and where distress can be used to lure naive victims. In other places, piracy isn't an issue and you're legally required to offer help.
- lovelearning 4y ago
  I don't understand the objection. Is there any reason to assume Americans who sail are immune to xenophobia, rhetoric, and politics?
  - nhooyr 4y ago
    It's clearly the "universal" that's the problem there...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- necovek 4y ago
  The author is obviously from the US where fear of others permeats everything (and requires carry of arms to defend one's home, for instance). They even talked of pirates in the story. While US is not universally like that, there is probably a large proportion that is (citation missing).
  - givemeethekeys 4y ago
    Sailing is a very international activity, and if one is doing large crossings, then meeting sailors from around the world is quite common. A lot can go wrong on a boat, and sailors - especially, small family crews can be forgiven for putting their safety ahead of a boat full of men that can outnumber and overpower them.
  - trompetenaccoun 4y ago
    I may not know much about how horrible the US is because I've never been, but refugees are regularly endangered in European waters despite help being technically around. In one case I heard of even the Italian coastguard would do nothing until the UN was called and put pressure on them. The refugees had called emergency services and were ignored, without UN intervention they would have died. So yeah, you might want to check your bias. This isn't something that just happens in the US, it's a worldwide thing. Refugees are mistreated in Africa, in Asia - everywhere.
    - necovek 4y ago
      I never said US is horrible: it is a magnificient country, and people are very friendly and welcoming to strangers (in familiar settings). But they are also very fearful of others at the same time. The article talks of refugees encountering 5 other boats which wouldn't help them before the author did. My (completely unsubstantiated, iow, my gut feel) claim is that they are a bit more fearful of other people being out to get them than people from most European countries. Think of it like 35% of Europeans would help vs 25% of Americans (again, numbers completely fabricated, or pulled out of my behind): a small percentage points difference, but a huge relative difference.
- fortysixdegrees 4y ago
  I found that more than a little odd. Sailors are universally out to help other seafarers and hope for help themselves when they need it. This was the guys first blue water trip, I guess he wasnt a true sailor yet, and hadn't lived life abord for long enough to adopt the culture.
  - jjav 4y ago
    You are correct in that the seafaring culture is to always render aid. Additionally it is also the law and international convention. https://www.bullivant.com/rescue-at-sea/ https://www.bullivant.com/rescue-at-sea/ “Every master is bound, so far as he can do so without serious danger to his vessel and persons thereon, to render assistance to any person in danger of being lost at sea.”
  - DocTomoe 4y ago
    Sailors are. They intimately know the sea and her dangers, they know looming death and despair during many months of being subjects to powers immeasurably stronger than any human can ever imagine. I would argue that two blokes on a sailboat doing fun rides in the Caribbean are hardly sailors. I guess when they talked to other 'sailors' who were 'agast', it was the Jonas Grumby/Gilligan type.
- noname123 4y ago
  I have a far less interesting and infinitely less daring story (but that is my response to the author's contention, "risk everything" and your question "why people are aghast"). When I was young in my mid 20's, I've just moved to a hip and hipster neighborhood of a college town lively with grad students, artists and musicians and comics; But I was just a lonely and geeky guy lookin' to fit in and meet and make new friends with the glitsy scene. One one evening, driving back from staying late on the job, I stopped for a fellow who motioned for help in the middle of the road. It turned out that his car battery died - but peculiarly his battery would not hold charge and his engine would only run if the jumper cable hooked up at all times. So really wanting to help, I offered to get into both of our cars with the jumper cables still connected - like 2 hungry hippos joined at the open mouths and drive down gingerly down 5 city blocks 'till we got to his driveway. Someway, somehow, against many honks and even incoming traffic, we made it. I was elated and thought I had made a friend and had a great story to tell; we exchanged phone numbers, and I asked the guy to have drinks with me some times. Except the guy never replied back to my messages. And while disappointing, it wasn't a big deal in the grander scale of things in life vis-a-vis major breakup's, "major reorgs" at work or major rifts with family relatives. But with passage of time, I've learned why it still nagged at me - because if I was honest with myself: what I did was actually not very altruistic. I stopped because I was a lonely young man who was looking for some kind of excitement to take on a "hero" role even if only for a moment. A situation I was hoping would garner me some dopamine hit with truly minimal cost to me - and yes even an covert expectation that the stranger would return my " kindness" and maybe even a social reward if I re-told the story [chasing an aesthetic pleasure disguised as an ethical act in the Kierkegaardian sense]. So I don't think I'd be keen to stop for someone now - not because I've become a grumpy old man who don't believe most people are bad and you shouldn't take un-necessary personal risk. But because (a) I think real heroism is deliberately pushing all your chips [at true emotional or material sacrifice to yourself] to the middle of the table for something or people whom you love over a long sustained period of time - not some impulsive act in the moment for an emotional reward, and (b) I think those people stranded on the road should have purchased an AAA membership; or should have carried an radio for emergency contact, brought on additional provisions or a marine GPS for their course on the high seas.
  - 4y ago
- Semiapies 4y ago
  Really, I wonder if it happened at all.
mettamage 4y ago
Beautiful short story. I'm happy there were no comments yet on it, as I'd normally browse the comments and then leave. If you are like that, then I recommend to read the article, it isn't that long.
dang 4y ago
Not much, but related: Risk Everything - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40192 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40192 - Aug 2007 (2 comments)
- youor 4y ago
nme01 4y ago
I see a problem with risking everything that is if your goal is to either make it to the top or make it to the bottom, then risking it all is the way to go. Yet, that’s a poor long-term strategy. Eventually risk will realize and you’ll lose it all.
- kqr 4y ago
  Your statement sort of assumes the worst case has negative infinity utility. Which, granted, is usually how economists model human behaviour, but perhaps not how humans behave in practise. (If death truly had negative infinity utility, it would overpower the benefit of everything and we couldn't do anything.)
  - FerociousTimes 4y ago
    Can you tell me please what you mean by "infinity utility" here?
  - elcomet 4y ago
    It doesn't assume this. That's just the definition of "risking everything". If you loose, then you have nothing left and you are at the bottom.
    - renewiltord 4y ago
      Right, but really risking everything is almost impossible to do. Like if I took my life savings and put them on red, I'm still going to be fine because I'll outrace that loss in no time. To really risk everything I have to burn bridges, damage my brain, and lose all my money. In the end, you always have yourself. Except when you die. And then it doesn't matter. Interestingly, though, I've always stopped for people on the side of the road to render aid and had many fun stories come from it but I almost never do when I have women in the car. I'm not entirely sure why but I don't. The only exception was years ago on the Road to Hana where it was after dark on the South East side of the island and we came upon a family with a busted tyre. But I think on the mainland, probably not. So maybe there's more to loss than oneself. I think I'd eat total death myself over harm to those I am responsible for.
rramadass 4y ago
From Rudyard Kipling's If; If you can make one heap of all your winnings And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss, And lose, and start again at your beginnings And never breathe a word about your loss; If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew To serve your turn long after they are gone, And so hold on when there is nothing in you Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’
- jackstraw14 4y ago
  the conclusion after many ifs is: "Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it, And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!"
  - rramadass 4y ago
    Here is the complete If by Rudyard Kipling; If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too; If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies, Or being hated, don’t give way to hating, And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise: If you can dream—and not make dreams your master; If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim; If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two impostors just the same; If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken, And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools: If you can make one heap of all your winnings And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss, And lose, and start again at your beginnings And never breathe a word about your loss; If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew To serve your turn long after they are gone, And so hold on when there is nothing in you Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’ If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch, If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you, If all men count with you, but none too much; If you can fill the unforgiving minute With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run, Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it, And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!
- 4y ago
jmspring 4y ago
Good story. Being a good human is important. Helping someone without being involved in (aside from sustaining them) is noble as well. Not every problem in this world needs a solution, those seeking will or will not find their solution. If in a position to help them humanitarianly, do so. Don't set expectations or guidance, resolve a need. Unless you have other extraordinary means.
dist1ll 4y ago
Maybe I'm a bit cynical, but I don't see anything admirable about this mindset. In fact, I think it's incredibly selfish. What kind of inhumane person would "risk everything" on a business venture? This reads like a dystopian horror novel exploring the extremes of a deranged entrepreneur's mind.
- FerociousTimes 4y ago
  Yeah, I agree that your take is cynical and judgemental to boot. No need to pass judgment on other people's value system esp. when the matter is very personal and won't affect other individuals or creatures and just deals with their subjective worldview and how they make sense of their role and contribution to the society or humanity in general.
  - dist1ll 4y ago
    If you post your subjective view on a public forum, judgement is literally the only opposing force in a discussion (because subjective differences in opinion cannot be rationalized by objective arguments). Unless you want an echo chamber, I don't see a problem with judgement.
    - FerociousTimes 4y ago
      I don't see a problem with judgement either but yours was very non-impersonal (ad hominem) and on top of that, absolutist in nature and sweeping in scope severely lacking in nuance and subtlety.
- Jensson 4y ago
  Most students risks more than everything, as worst case they will be ridden with debt without any additional job prospects. For an entrepreneur at worst they can declare bankruptcy and be better off than the student. So it doesn't seem like entrepreneurship is all that risky compared to what average students go through.
  - 4y ago
kasitmp 4y ago
I really like that the author helped them and it sounded odd to me to read "The prevailing wisdom for this seafaring situation is “Don’t Stop.”", before I realised that in different countries there are different threats. Sailing mainly in the Baltics, there is the opposing rule of having the duty to help people in distress at sea. I'm not sure I fully understand the "learning" part, isn't this a bit of survivor bias, especially the boldness part? Risking all your money in a society with a safety net is different to me than risking your own life on high sea, mainly w/o knowing in what situation you bring yourself. There is a huge group who's story can't be told anymore. However, maybe I'm already too lazy and unwilling to take risks.
- bjarneh 4y ago
  > there is the opposing rule of having the duty to help people in distress at sea. That's all I've ever heard as well. Perhaps the amount of pirates/refugees/drug-runners in those waters around Belize has turned that on its head?
  - merely-unlikely 4y ago
    This is a dichotomy that appears across sailing cultures and territories, certainly not unique to Belize or the modern era. The law/rule is made because a) it is often extremely risky to stop and help a stranded vessel for the same reason b) the stranded vessel has little recourse if no one stops to help. If no one helps, the vessel may be doomed. But if you help and the vessel turns out to be pirates (or just so desperate the sailors turn into pirates to save themselves), then you become the stranded one. The solution some governing organizations take is to remove the choice and mandate sailors subject to its jurisdiction stop and help. This is beneficial on a community scale even if potentially fatal in any individual instance. Of course the challenge remains of if we are all alone at sea, how will anyone know back home we didn't stop?
- throwaway642012 4y ago
  Most successful entrepreneurs have a safety margin and take calculated risks while starting new ventures. Seldom do the "Hail Mary" ventures end up in success, because the odds are stacked against them (yes, there are outliers). What the author is alluding to that, while entrepreneurs like her think they are risking everything while starting a venture, their struggles are lesser compared to the people in the boat and similar others.
mvind 4y ago
Great read, thanks for sharing.
spaceheater 4y ago
Or, this was just a bad plan. They got lucky, the next bunch not so much.
- tarakat 4y ago
  Was it? Perhaps I misunderstood, but when the author found them, they were less than a day from Cancun, and on the right course. They would have made it even without her help.
shisisms 4y ago
It’s easy to take this observation in literal terms. Most of the comments point to the danger of “risking everything (financially)” and of course there’s a potential stupidity in that. Reframed as psychologically risking everything is perhaps a more resonant alternative view. What this means is the notion that “you’re all in”, all of you. That your entire being is at risk. Sports perhaps the easiest illustration, where your entire idea of person is at risk. That’s when the dopamine flies along with the adrenaline. It’s often why you see huge dysfunction in the hyper successful, because the drive is so strong. It’s why an outsized proportion of UK Prime Ministers for example had lost a parent young. There’s a danger in narrowly framing risking everything. As the material provides far less of a drive than the psychological. It’s also much scarier to put your whole self at risk. Elon getting as far as away possible (Mars) from his possibly quite mad father, is perhaps a much stronger incentive/drive than making a few more billion. As to whether it’s desirable, well that’s surely another question altogether.
- dogman144 4y ago
  If I properly understand, I agree. A all-in attempt to reframe life based on self-awareness and what’s not right/what’s really wanted can be a rewarding experience when it’s properly hedged. I think doing it consistently in small and large ways is a good way to continually develop as a person as middle and old age set in. The world is a big place and I think the point gets missed if the track you’re born into is the track you die in. Attempting these track changes and ideally pulling them off is a great way to understand the power of personal agency and where self-identity comes from. Hedging the risks of this generally means clear plans for financial stability during the change, and generally accepting and planning for the consequences of the change. It’s hard to <learn to code, move abroad, w/e> when you can’t pay rent. I think people who wade into attempting this likely fail due to not being able to cover their hedges and an bit of bad luck. Or, they are just born into the wrong zip code and the real-life risks of a change are too much to overcome or they have very narrow paths with tough trade offs (joining the military or w/e). So, all that said, putting your life orientation and self-identity at risk once in a while and expanding the territory is a good thing I think.
- mcguire 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ggambetta 4y ago
Literal survivorship bias, for both parties involved in the story.
- Semiapies 4y ago
  Yes. He'd have a lot harder time writing this article if he'd gone to investigate a raft full of people dead from dehydration.
  - ggambetta 4y ago
    Or if he'd been raided by pirates, which he seems to suggest is a common enough occurrence to make the general advice "don't stop".
exitb 4y ago
The author is wondering whether she'd get better business results if she pushed her team in a way more akin to communist Cuba.
tingletech 4y ago
2007
csomar 4y ago
This guy has got it all wrong. These guys have everything to win and nothing to lose. They are not taking any risks.
- tomschwiha 4y ago
  What is more worth than life?
  - csomar 4y ago
    Your life is as valuable as the freedoms and things you can access. If you are living in Cuba with no money, no freedoms and no prospects; your life is worth very little to nothing. It's a no-brainer to jump on a boat and move somewhere else where your life value can increase.
    - actionfromafar 4y ago
      Okay, it's a detail, but Cuba is a weird country to single out. It's bad, but surely there must be literally dozens of worse countries to choose from.
  - rramadass 4y ago
    Wolf Larsen from The Sea-Wolf by Jack London; “Do you know the only value life has is what life puts upon itself? And it is of course over-estimated since it is of necessity prejudiced in its own favour. Take that man I had aloft. He held on as if he were a precious thing, a treasure beyond diamonds or rubies. To you? No. To me? Not at all. To himself? Yes. But I do not accept his estimate. He sadly overrates himself. There is plenty more life demanding to be born. Had he fallen and dripped his brains upon the deck like honey from the comb, there would have been no loss to the world. He was worth nothing to the world. The supply is too large. To himself only was he of value, and to show how fictitious even this value was, being dead he is unconscious that he has lost himself. He alone rated himself beyond diamonds and rubies. Diamonds and rubies are gone, spread out on the deck to be washed away by a bucket of sea-water, and he does not even know that the diamonds and rubies are gone. He does not lose anything, for with the loss of himself he loses the knowledge of loss. Don’t you see? And what have you to say?”
boffinism 4y ago
"But it dawns on me that luck is just the product of all these other qualities" This, to me, highlights the flaw in the whole article. They nearly died. They were saved by a chance encounter with a friendly boat. This encounter was SO OBVIOUSLY not a product of their own motivation, boldness or any of the rest of that guff. This is the worst form of survivor bias.
- Arisaka1 4y ago
  People always want to ascribe the smallest slice of pie in luck, so that they get praise for what they achieve. I broke friendships with people who insisted that it wasn't their country's job market that had more opportunities for self-taughts to start their career, but it was their hard work and free will that made them chase the opportunities, which is akin to saying it wasn't the door that was unlocked it was my legs that helped me walk to the door. Also, I cannot get myself to imagine that the captain of the ship had a plan to have 40 people drifting in the chance that they find someone else to approach them for restocking, and if that's the kind of captain we want more of I'm out.
- ookdatnog 4y ago
  There seem to be quite a lot of people who really need to believe that luck plays at best a minor role in (their) success for their sense of identity to remain intact, and who get incredibly defensive when this notion is challenged. I guess in daily life it's a useful self-delusion. A mostly harmless belief that gets them through the day while being obviously false: if you're born in the middle class in a developed economy in the modern day, you're likely to be vastly more lucky than, say, 99% of all people who have ever existed so far.
- moffkalast 4y ago
  Yeah, even from his perspective it's survivorship bias. The sailboat captains that got jumped by a dinghy full of AK47 wielding pirates aren't around to write deluded articles.
- Satam 4y ago
  Luck can present you an opportunity but it is still up to the individual to make most of it.
buro9 4y ago
I had to do this when young... I was homeless, rough sleeping. Honestly... it's a terrible piece of advice. Those risking everything have no other choice. If you're reading this person's blog post, if you're on HN... you probably have a choice, and you probably aren't "risking everything". I cannot imagine anyone on here actually choosing to potentially have nothing at all, no network, no funds, no assets, no nothing... and I do not believe the author of the article would either. I am reminded (again) of this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15659076 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15659076 > Entrepreneurship is like one of those carnival games where you throw darts or something. > Middle class kids can afford one throw. Most miss. A few hit the target and get a small prize. A very few hit the center bullseye and get a bigger prize. Rags to riches! The American Dream lives on. > Rich kids can afford many throws. If they want to, they can try over and over and over again until they hit something and feel good about themselves. Some keep going until they hit the center bullseye, then they give speeches or write blog posts about "meritocracy" and the salutary effects of hard work. > Poor kids aren't visiting the carnival. They're the ones working it. Only the privileged get to choose what to risk... and that risk isn't as real as when there was no choice. Those who know that would never choose it.
- _zamorano_ 4y ago
  Daniel Kahneman, in his book thinking fast and slow, has a really good insight on why people in bad situations keep taking bad choices. Google "The fourfold pattern". Basically, he states that there's a cognitive bias where people in situations where a poor outcome is likely to happen, tend to risk too much, and not settle for a bad (but better) outcome that what they already have. If they kept compounding these "bad but better choices", they might have a chance.
  - NiloCK 4y ago
    This is detailed pretty will in the book Scarcity, which highlights similar psychological effects among people who have not enough money, not enought time, not enough prestige, not enough room for caloric intake (dieters), etc. I wish this book were more popular.
pavlov 4y ago
A reminder that this story plays out dozens of times every day in the Mediterranean right now. 42,549 irregular border crossings were reported in July 2022 on the Central Mediterranean route [1]. The number of those who drowned will never be known. Many of these Africans who dare to cross the sea have already travelled for weeks or months and survived the Sahara. They are not celebrated as risktakers, though. Unlike this article, nobody sings odes to the boldness, inventiveness, motivation, honor and leadership qualities of the African migrant. Maybe they should. [1] https://frontex.europa.eu/media-centre/news/news-release/eu-s-external-borders-in-july-increased-number-of-crossings-on-the-central-mediterranean-vCtsyr https://frontex.europa.eu/media-centre/news/news-release/eu-...
- hoseja 4y ago
  I'm sure a lot of NGOs do.
  - pavlov 4y ago
    Do they? Faced with the prevalent right-wing rhetoric where a not uncommon position is that African migrants either deserve to drown or at least should be kept in camps somewhere far away, their Western defenders tend to adopt a defensive posture that focuses on basic human rights but also easily patronizes the migrants. The "Risk Everything" story glorifies a young Cuban boat refugee's leadership qualities. I certainly can't remember ever reading an article like that about an African refugee written by an European. It's somehow easier for us to see the best of humanity in someone from Cuba than in someone from Niger, even when they both suffered under dictatorship and took extraordinary steps to escape.
- ajvs 4y ago
  > Unlike this article, nobody sings odes to the boldness, inventiveness, motivation, honor and leadership qualities of the African migrant. Maybe they should. It's a bit odd that choice of traits to ascribe to economic migrants, which could be better describe the African entrepreneurs who chose to stay and improve their home community.
  - 4y ago
cafemachiavelli 4y ago
It's a nice story but imo would be better without the forced lesson at the end. As most here have pointed out, it's just survivorship bias with some poetic phrasing. As for taking risks: I don't think I'd lose single utilon if I never hear another affluent ex-entrepreneur talk about the importance of taking risks. I've been broke before, I've nearly missed rent on several occasions, and none of those times had me working at my baseline competence, let alone at my peak. If those people do better at those circumstances, they must have some quirk that I'm missing. In practice I perform at my best when I'm emotionally invested but don't really care about the outcome. My two successful businesses were both side gigs I started for fun that scaled well when I noticed that I had greatly underestimated demand. I didn't risk anything for either of those beyond maybe a hundred hours of initial setting up time.
avg_dev 4y ago
This is a crazy story. It is a tale of compassion and human perseverance against nature. But parts of it really bother me. To equate risking everything for a chance at a decent life with the struggles of foundership is discarding the inherent worth of life. The two are not equivalent things. The former is about basic dignity and human rights and the chance to live a happy life and the latter is about trying to build something. I don't discount the challenges founders face; on the contrary I have tried it and failed spectacularly; it is not easy and that it requires a set of skills that is hard to learn and harder still to master. > We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. - from the US Declaration of Independence I believe strongly in that, and I will say further that I believe that all human beings are created equal, and have inherent rights. Many countries have similar mottos: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life,_Liberty_and_the_pursuit_of_Happiness#Comparable_mottos_worldwide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life,_Liberty_and_the_pursuit_... I believe it is a disservice to humanity to compare foundership and basic human rights and dignity. > Luck On a day when it really counted, they had some of it. But it dawns on me that luck is just the product of all these other qualities. Really struggling with this quote. It is in my opinion a serious mistake to believe that luck is not a factor. I have been extremely lucky; I was born in a democratic country and I had easy access to health care and education, and by god I had access to a computer at a young age. These accidents of birth are nothing more or less than luck, and they made a tremendous difference in my life and had a significant positive impact on my life. Even in my own city, people are suffering in poverty, have a lack of access to medical care, etc. These people simply don't have the good luck that I have had. As other commenters like buro9 have mentioned, > Those risking everything have no other choice.
boomka 4y ago
I can't believe this story ended with a bunch of slogans fit for big corp motivational posters. This was a story of depravity, desperation, starvation and the horrible choices one has to make when they feel that the only choices left all lead to likely death. To draw career or enterpreneurship inspiration from it just seems... wrong...
jwie 4y ago
Migrating to the United States or Europe for these desperate souls seems the least risky option. Sure the journey is difficult and you might die, but this isn’t worse than the alternative of starvation or enslavement in the place from which you flee. The boat migrant is risking everything. But it’s a calculated risk and he doesn’t have much to lose anyway.
patientplatypus 4y ago
RektBoy 4y ago
jesuscript 4y ago
Fuck, that was well written.

246 points by sutro 4y ago

Nice story. Thanks for sharing.

I take objection to this line: > When I share this story with other sailors, they are universally aghast that we helped these refugees. I wonder what kind of sailors they are conversing with, if at all.

frobozz 4y ago
Also: > The prevailing wisdom for this seafaring situation is “Don’t Stop.” The law is to render assistance. That law was based on prevailing wisdom. Apparently the author moves in different circles to the rest of seafaring folk.
- mcv 4y ago
  I think it really depends on where you are. There are still many places in the world where piracy is real, and where distress can be used to lure naive victims. In other places, piracy isn't an issue and you're legally required to offer help.
lovelearning 4y ago
I don't understand the objection. Is there any reason to assume Americans who sail are immune to xenophobia, rhetoric, and politics?
- nhooyr 4y ago
  It's clearly the "universal" that's the problem there...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
necovek 4y ago
The author is obviously from the US where fear of others permeats everything (and requires carry of arms to defend one's home, for instance). They even talked of pirates in the story. While US is not universally like that, there is probably a large proportion that is (citation missing).
- givemeethekeys 4y ago
  Sailing is a very international activity, and if one is doing large crossings, then meeting sailors from around the world is quite common. A lot can go wrong on a boat, and sailors - especially, small family crews can be forgiven for putting their safety ahead of a boat full of men that can outnumber and overpower them.
- trompetenaccoun 4y ago
  I may not know much about how horrible the US is because I've never been, but refugees are regularly endangered in European waters despite help being technically around. In one case I heard of even the Italian coastguard would do nothing until the UN was called and put pressure on them. The refugees had called emergency services and were ignored, without UN intervention they would have died. So yeah, you might want to check your bias. This isn't something that just happens in the US, it's a worldwide thing. Refugees are mistreated in Africa, in Asia - everywhere.
  - necovek 4y ago
    I never said US is horrible: it is a magnificient country, and people are very friendly and welcoming to strangers (in familiar settings). But they are also very fearful of others at the same time. The article talks of refugees encountering 5 other boats which wouldn't help them before the author did. My (completely unsubstantiated, iow, my gut feel) claim is that they are a bit more fearful of other people being out to get them than people from most European countries. Think of it like 35% of Europeans would help vs 25% of Americans (again, numbers completely fabricated, or pulled out of my behind): a small percentage points difference, but a huge relative difference.
fortysixdegrees 4y ago
I found that more than a little odd. Sailors are universally out to help other seafarers and hope for help themselves when they need it. This was the guys first blue water trip, I guess he wasnt a true sailor yet, and hadn't lived life abord for long enough to adopt the culture.
- jjav 4y ago
  You are correct in that the seafaring culture is to always render aid. Additionally it is also the law and international convention. https://www.bullivant.com/rescue-at-sea/ https://www.bullivant.com/rescue-at-sea/ “Every master is bound, so far as he can do so without serious danger to his vessel and persons thereon, to render assistance to any person in danger of being lost at sea.”
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  Sailors are. They intimately know the sea and her dangers, they know looming death and despair during many months of being subjects to powers immeasurably stronger than any human can ever imagine. I would argue that two blokes on a sailboat doing fun rides in the Caribbean are hardly sailors. I guess when they talked to other 'sailors' who were 'agast', it was the Jonas Grumby/Gilligan type.
noname123 4y ago
I have a far less interesting and infinitely less daring story (but that is my response to the author's contention, "risk everything" and your question "why people are aghast"). When I was young in my mid 20's, I've just moved to a hip and hipster neighborhood of a college town lively with grad students, artists and musicians and comics; But I was just a lonely and geeky guy lookin' to fit in and meet and make new friends with the glitsy scene. One one evening, driving back from staying late on the job, I stopped for a fellow who motioned for help in the middle of the road. It turned out that his car battery died - but peculiarly his battery would not hold charge and his engine would only run if the jumper cable hooked up at all times. So really wanting to help, I offered to get into both of our cars with the jumper cables still connected - like 2 hungry hippos joined at the open mouths and drive down gingerly down 5 city blocks 'till we got to his driveway. Someway, somehow, against many honks and even incoming traffic, we made it. I was elated and thought I had made a friend and had a great story to tell; we exchanged phone numbers, and I asked the guy to have drinks with me some times. Except the guy never replied back to my messages. And while disappointing, it wasn't a big deal in the grander scale of things in life vis-a-vis major breakup's, "major reorgs" at work or major rifts with family relatives. But with passage of time, I've learned why it still nagged at me - because if I was honest with myself: what I did was actually not very altruistic. I stopped because I was a lonely young man who was looking for some kind of excitement to take on a "hero" role even if only for a moment. A situation I was hoping would garner me some dopamine hit with truly minimal cost to me - and yes even an covert expectation that the stranger would return my " kindness" and maybe even a social reward if I re-told the story [chasing an aesthetic pleasure disguised as an ethical act in the Kierkegaardian sense]. So I don't think I'd be keen to stop for someone now - not because I've become a grumpy old man who don't believe most people are bad and you shouldn't take un-necessary personal risk. But because (a) I think real heroism is deliberately pushing all your chips [at true emotional or material sacrifice to yourself] to the middle of the table for something or people whom you love over a long sustained period of time - not some impulsive act in the moment for an emotional reward, and (b) I think those people stranded on the road should have purchased an AAA membership; or should have carried an radio for emergency contact, brought on additional provisions or a marine GPS for their course on the high seas.
- 4y ago
Semiapies 4y ago
Really, I wonder if it happened at all.

mettamage 4y ago

Beautiful short story. I'm happy there were no comments yet on it, as I'd normally browse the comments and then leave. If you are like that, then I recommend to read the article, it isn't that long.

dang 4y ago

Not much, but related: Risk Everything - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40192 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40192 - Aug 2007 (2 comments)

youor 4y ago

nme01 4y ago

I see a problem with risking everything that is if your goal is to either make it to the top or make it to the bottom, then risking it all is the way to go. Yet, that’s a poor long-term strategy. Eventually risk will realize and you’ll lose it all.

kqr 4y ago
Your statement sort of assumes the worst case has negative infinity utility. Which, granted, is usually how economists model human behaviour, but perhaps not how humans behave in practise. (If death truly had negative infinity utility, it would overpower the benefit of everything and we couldn't do anything.)
- FerociousTimes 4y ago
  Can you tell me please what you mean by "infinity utility" here?
- elcomet 4y ago
  It doesn't assume this. That's just the definition of "risking everything". If you loose, then you have nothing left and you are at the bottom.
  - renewiltord 4y ago
    Right, but really risking everything is almost impossible to do. Like if I took my life savings and put them on red, I'm still going to be fine because I'll outrace that loss in no time. To really risk everything I have to burn bridges, damage my brain, and lose all my money. In the end, you always have yourself. Except when you die. And then it doesn't matter. Interestingly, though, I've always stopped for people on the side of the road to render aid and had many fun stories come from it but I almost never do when I have women in the car. I'm not entirely sure why but I don't. The only exception was years ago on the Road to Hana where it was after dark on the South East side of the island and we came upon a family with a busted tyre. But I think on the mainland, probably not. So maybe there's more to loss than oneself. I think I'd eat total death myself over harm to those I am responsible for.

rramadass 4y ago

From Rudyard Kipling's If; If you can make one heap of all your winnings And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss, And lose, and start again at your beginnings And never breathe a word about your loss; If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew To serve your turn long after they are gone, And so hold on when there is nothing in you Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

jackstraw14 4y ago
the conclusion after many ifs is: "Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it, And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!"
- rramadass 4y ago
  Here is the complete If by Rudyard Kipling; If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too; If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies, Or being hated, don’t give way to hating, And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise: If you can dream—and not make dreams your master; If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim; If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two impostors just the same; If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken, And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools: If you can make one heap of all your winnings And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss, And lose, and start again at your beginnings And never breathe a word about your loss; If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew To serve your turn long after they are gone, And so hold on when there is nothing in you Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’ If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch, If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you, If all men count with you, but none too much; If you can fill the unforgiving minute With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run, Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it, And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!
4y ago

jmspring 4y ago

Good story. Being a good human is important. Helping someone without being involved in (aside from sustaining them) is noble as well. Not every problem in this world needs a solution, those seeking will or will not find their solution. If in a position to help them humanitarianly, do so. Don't set expectations or guidance, resolve a need. Unless you have other extraordinary means.

dist1ll 4y ago

Maybe I'm a bit cynical, but I don't see anything admirable about this mindset. In fact, I think it's incredibly selfish. What kind of inhumane person would "risk everything" on a business venture? This reads like a dystopian horror novel exploring the extremes of a deranged entrepreneur's mind.

FerociousTimes 4y ago
Yeah, I agree that your take is cynical and judgemental to boot. No need to pass judgment on other people's value system esp. when the matter is very personal and won't affect other individuals or creatures and just deals with their subjective worldview and how they make sense of their role and contribution to the society or humanity in general.
- dist1ll 4y ago
  If you post your subjective view on a public forum, judgement is literally the only opposing force in a discussion (because subjective differences in opinion cannot be rationalized by objective arguments). Unless you want an echo chamber, I don't see a problem with judgement.
  - FerociousTimes 4y ago
    I don't see a problem with judgement either but yours was very non-impersonal (ad hominem) and on top of that, absolutist in nature and sweeping in scope severely lacking in nuance and subtlety.
Jensson 4y ago
Most students risks more than everything, as worst case they will be ridden with debt without any additional job prospects. For an entrepreneur at worst they can declare bankruptcy and be better off than the student. So it doesn't seem like entrepreneurship is all that risky compared to what average students go through.
- 4y ago

kasitmp 4y ago

I really like that the author helped them and it sounded odd to me to read "The prevailing wisdom for this seafaring situation is “Don’t Stop.”", before I realised that in different countries there are different threats. Sailing mainly in the Baltics, there is the opposing rule of having the duty to help people in distress at sea. I'm not sure I fully understand the "learning" part, isn't this a bit of survivor bias, especially the boldness part? Risking all your money in a society with a safety net is different to me than risking your own life on high sea, mainly w/o knowing in what situation you bring yourself. There is a huge group who's story can't be told anymore. However, maybe I'm already too lazy and unwilling to take risks.

bjarneh 4y ago
> there is the opposing rule of having the duty to help people in distress at sea. That's all I've ever heard as well. Perhaps the amount of pirates/refugees/drug-runners in those waters around Belize has turned that on its head?
- merely-unlikely 4y ago
  This is a dichotomy that appears across sailing cultures and territories, certainly not unique to Belize or the modern era. The law/rule is made because a) it is often extremely risky to stop and help a stranded vessel for the same reason b) the stranded vessel has little recourse if no one stops to help. If no one helps, the vessel may be doomed. But if you help and the vessel turns out to be pirates (or just so desperate the sailors turn into pirates to save themselves), then you become the stranded one. The solution some governing organizations take is to remove the choice and mandate sailors subject to its jurisdiction stop and help. This is beneficial on a community scale even if potentially fatal in any individual instance. Of course the challenge remains of if we are all alone at sea, how will anyone know back home we didn't stop?
throwaway642012 4y ago
Most successful entrepreneurs have a safety margin and take calculated risks while starting new ventures. Seldom do the "Hail Mary" ventures end up in success, because the odds are stacked against them (yes, there are outliers). What the author is alluding to that, while entrepreneurs like her think they are risking everything while starting a venture, their struggles are lesser compared to the people in the boat and similar others.

mvind 4y ago

Great read, thanks for sharing.

spaceheater 4y ago

Or, this was just a bad plan. They got lucky, the next bunch not so much.

tarakat 4y ago
Was it? Perhaps I misunderstood, but when the author found them, they were less than a day from Cancun, and on the right course. They would have made it even without her help.

shisisms 4y ago

It’s easy to take this observation in literal terms. Most of the comments point to the danger of “risking everything (financially)” and of course there’s a potential stupidity in that. Reframed as psychologically risking everything is perhaps a more resonant alternative view. What this means is the notion that “you’re all in”, all of you. That your entire being is at risk. Sports perhaps the easiest illustration, where your entire idea of person is at risk. That’s when the dopamine flies along with the adrenaline. It’s often why you see huge dysfunction in the hyper successful, because the drive is so strong. It’s why an outsized proportion of UK Prime Ministers for example had lost a parent young. There’s a danger in narrowly framing risking everything. As the material provides far less of a drive than the psychological. It’s also much scarier to put your whole self at risk. Elon getting as far as away possible (Mars) from his possibly quite mad father, is perhaps a much stronger incentive/drive than making a few more billion. As to whether it’s desirable, well that’s surely another question altogether.

dogman144 4y ago
If I properly understand, I agree. A all-in attempt to reframe life based on self-awareness and what’s not right/what’s really wanted can be a rewarding experience when it’s properly hedged. I think doing it consistently in small and large ways is a good way to continually develop as a person as middle and old age set in. The world is a big place and I think the point gets missed if the track you’re born into is the track you die in. Attempting these track changes and ideally pulling them off is a great way to understand the power of personal agency and where self-identity comes from. Hedging the risks of this generally means clear plans for financial stability during the change, and generally accepting and planning for the consequences of the change. It’s hard to <learn to code, move abroad, w/e> when you can’t pay rent. I think people who wade into attempting this likely fail due to not being able to cover their hedges and an bit of bad luck. Or, they are just born into the wrong zip code and the real-life risks of a change are too much to overcome or they have very narrow paths with tough trade offs (joining the military or w/e). So, all that said, putting your life orientation and self-identity at risk once in a while and expanding the territory is a good thing I think.
mcguire 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ggambetta 4y ago

Literal survivorship bias, for both parties involved in the story.

Semiapies 4y ago
Yes. He'd have a lot harder time writing this article if he'd gone to investigate a raft full of people dead from dehydration.
- ggambetta 4y ago
  Or if he'd been raided by pirates, which he seems to suggest is a common enough occurrence to make the general advice "don't stop".

exitb 4y ago

The author is wondering whether she'd get better business results if she pushed her team in a way more akin to communist Cuba.

tingletech 4y ago

2007

csomar 4y ago

This guy has got it all wrong. These guys have everything to win and nothing to lose. They are not taking any risks.

tomschwiha 4y ago
What is more worth than life?
- csomar 4y ago
  Your life is as valuable as the freedoms and things you can access. If you are living in Cuba with no money, no freedoms and no prospects; your life is worth very little to nothing. It's a no-brainer to jump on a boat and move somewhere else where your life value can increase.
  - actionfromafar 4y ago
    Okay, it's a detail, but Cuba is a weird country to single out. It's bad, but surely there must be literally dozens of worse countries to choose from.
- rramadass 4y ago
  Wolf Larsen from The Sea-Wolf by Jack London; “Do you know the only value life has is what life puts upon itself? And it is of course over-estimated since it is of necessity prejudiced in its own favour. Take that man I had aloft. He held on as if he were a precious thing, a treasure beyond diamonds or rubies. To you? No. To me? Not at all. To himself? Yes. But I do not accept his estimate. He sadly overrates himself. There is plenty more life demanding to be born. Had he fallen and dripped his brains upon the deck like honey from the comb, there would have been no loss to the world. He was worth nothing to the world. The supply is too large. To himself only was he of value, and to show how fictitious even this value was, being dead he is unconscious that he has lost himself. He alone rated himself beyond diamonds and rubies. Diamonds and rubies are gone, spread out on the deck to be washed away by a bucket of sea-water, and he does not even know that the diamonds and rubies are gone. He does not lose anything, for with the loss of himself he loses the knowledge of loss. Don’t you see? And what have you to say?”

boffinism 4y ago

"But it dawns on me that luck is just the product of all these other qualities" This, to me, highlights the flaw in the whole article. They nearly died. They were saved by a chance encounter with a friendly boat. This encounter was SO OBVIOUSLY not a product of their own motivation, boldness or any of the rest of that guff. This is the worst form of survivor bias.

Arisaka1 4y ago
People always want to ascribe the smallest slice of pie in luck, so that they get praise for what they achieve. I broke friendships with people who insisted that it wasn't their country's job market that had more opportunities for self-taughts to start their career, but it was their hard work and free will that made them chase the opportunities, which is akin to saying it wasn't the door that was unlocked it was my legs that helped me walk to the door. Also, I cannot get myself to imagine that the captain of the ship had a plan to have 40 people drifting in the chance that they find someone else to approach them for restocking, and if that's the kind of captain we want more of I'm out.
ookdatnog 4y ago
There seem to be quite a lot of people who really need to believe that luck plays at best a minor role in (their) success for their sense of identity to remain intact, and who get incredibly defensive when this notion is challenged. I guess in daily life it's a useful self-delusion. A mostly harmless belief that gets them through the day while being obviously false: if you're born in the middle class in a developed economy in the modern day, you're likely to be vastly more lucky than, say, 99% of all people who have ever existed so far.
moffkalast 4y ago
Yeah, even from his perspective it's survivorship bias. The sailboat captains that got jumped by a dinghy full of AK47 wielding pirates aren't around to write deluded articles.
Satam 4y ago
Luck can present you an opportunity but it is still up to the individual to make most of it.

buro9 4y ago

I had to do this when young... I was homeless, rough sleeping. Honestly... it's a terrible piece of advice. Those risking everything have no other choice. If you're reading this person's blog post, if you're on HN... you probably have a choice, and you probably aren't "risking everything". I cannot imagine anyone on here actually choosing to potentially have nothing at all, no network, no funds, no assets, no nothing... and I do not believe the author of the article would either. I am reminded (again) of this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15659076 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15659076 > Entrepreneurship is like one of those carnival games where you throw darts or something. > Middle class kids can afford one throw. Most miss. A few hit the target and get a small prize. A very few hit the center bullseye and get a bigger prize. Rags to riches! The American Dream lives on. > Rich kids can afford many throws. If they want to, they can try over and over and over again until they hit something and feel good about themselves. Some keep going until they hit the center bullseye, then they give speeches or write blog posts about "meritocracy" and the salutary effects of hard work. > Poor kids aren't visiting the carnival. They're the ones working it. Only the privileged get to choose what to risk... and that risk isn't as real as when there was no choice. Those who know that would never choose it.

_zamorano_ 4y ago
Daniel Kahneman, in his book thinking fast and slow, has a really good insight on why people in bad situations keep taking bad choices. Google "The fourfold pattern". Basically, he states that there's a cognitive bias where people in situations where a poor outcome is likely to happen, tend to risk too much, and not settle for a bad (but better) outcome that what they already have. If they kept compounding these "bad but better choices", they might have a chance.
- NiloCK 4y ago
  This is detailed pretty will in the book Scarcity, which highlights similar psychological effects among people who have not enough money, not enought time, not enough prestige, not enough room for caloric intake (dieters), etc. I wish this book were more popular.

pavlov 4y ago

A reminder that this story plays out dozens of times every day in the Mediterranean right now. 42,549 irregular border crossings were reported in July 2022 on the Central Mediterranean route [1]. The number of those who drowned will never be known. Many of these Africans who dare to cross the sea have already travelled for weeks or months and survived the Sahara. They are not celebrated as risktakers, though. Unlike this article, nobody sings odes to the boldness, inventiveness, motivation, honor and leadership qualities of the African migrant. Maybe they should. [1] https://frontex.europa.eu/media-centre/news/news-release/eu-s-external-borders-in-july-increased-number-of-crossings-on-the-central-mediterranean-vCtsyr https://frontex.europa.eu/media-centre/news/news-release/eu-...

hoseja 4y ago
I'm sure a lot of NGOs do.
- pavlov 4y ago
  Do they? Faced with the prevalent right-wing rhetoric where a not uncommon position is that African migrants either deserve to drown or at least should be kept in camps somewhere far away, their Western defenders tend to adopt a defensive posture that focuses on basic human rights but also easily patronizes the migrants. The "Risk Everything" story glorifies a young Cuban boat refugee's leadership qualities. I certainly can't remember ever reading an article like that about an African refugee written by an European. It's somehow easier for us to see the best of humanity in someone from Cuba than in someone from Niger, even when they both suffered under dictatorship and took extraordinary steps to escape.
ajvs 4y ago
> Unlike this article, nobody sings odes to the boldness, inventiveness, motivation, honor and leadership qualities of the African migrant. Maybe they should. It's a bit odd that choice of traits to ascribe to economic migrants, which could be better describe the African entrepreneurs who chose to stay and improve their home community.
- 4y ago

cafemachiavelli 4y ago

It's a nice story but imo would be better without the forced lesson at the end. As most here have pointed out, it's just survivorship bias with some poetic phrasing. As for taking risks: I don't think I'd lose single utilon if I never hear another affluent ex-entrepreneur talk about the importance of taking risks. I've been broke before, I've nearly missed rent on several occasions, and none of those times had me working at my baseline competence, let alone at my peak. If those people do better at those circumstances, they must have some quirk that I'm missing. In practice I perform at my best when I'm emotionally invested but don't really care about the outcome. My two successful businesses were both side gigs I started for fun that scaled well when I noticed that I had greatly underestimated demand. I didn't risk anything for either of those beyond maybe a hundred hours of initial setting up time.

avg_dev 4y ago

This is a crazy story. It is a tale of compassion and human perseverance against nature. But parts of it really bother me. To equate risking everything for a chance at a decent life with the struggles of foundership is discarding the inherent worth of life. The two are not equivalent things. The former is about basic dignity and human rights and the chance to live a happy life and the latter is about trying to build something. I don't discount the challenges founders face; on the contrary I have tried it and failed spectacularly; it is not easy and that it requires a set of skills that is hard to learn and harder still to master. > We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. - from the US Declaration of Independence I believe strongly in that, and I will say further that I believe that all human beings are created equal, and have inherent rights. Many countries have similar mottos: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life,_Liberty_and_the_pursuit_of_Happiness#Comparable_mottos_worldwide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life,_Liberty_and_the_pursuit_... I believe it is a disservice to humanity to compare foundership and basic human rights and dignity. > Luck On a day when it really counted, they had some of it. But it dawns on me that luck is just the product of all these other qualities. Really struggling with this quote. It is in my opinion a serious mistake to believe that luck is not a factor. I have been extremely lucky; I was born in a democratic country and I had easy access to health care and education, and by god I had access to a computer at a young age. These accidents of birth are nothing more or less than luck, and they made a tremendous difference in my life and had a significant positive impact on my life. Even in my own city, people are suffering in poverty, have a lack of access to medical care, etc. These people simply don't have the good luck that I have had. As other commenters like buro9 have mentioned, > Those risking everything have no other choice.

boomka 4y ago

I can't believe this story ended with a bunch of slogans fit for big corp motivational posters. This was a story of depravity, desperation, starvation and the horrible choices one has to make when they feel that the only choices left all lead to likely death. To draw career or enterpreneurship inspiration from it just seems... wrong...

jwie 4y ago

Migrating to the United States or Europe for these desperate souls seems the least risky option. Sure the journey is difficult and you might die, but this isn’t worse than the alternative of starvation or enslavement in the place from which you flee. The boat migrant is risking everything. But it’s a calculated risk and he doesn’t have much to lose anyway.

patientplatypus 4y ago

RektBoy 4y ago

jesuscript 4y ago

Fuck, that was well written.