5 ms·

Does one really need to teach zero knowledge proofs in the context of money laundering?

mhluongo 4y ago
Money laundering: the concealment of the origins of illegally obtained money, typically by means of transfers involving foreign banks or legitimate businesses. Tornado Cash isn't for laundering money, it's for breaking the chain of public transactions on block explorers. It doesn't make withdrawn fees look "legitimate". Tired of these goal posts getting moved.
- asojfdowgh 4y ago
  "breaking the chain of public transactions" sounds remarkably similar to "concealment of the origins of" for some reason.
  - rattlesnakedave 4y ago
    I deposit 100 ETH to tornado, wait a while, and withdraw in 10 ETH increments. There is still no explanation for the origin of the funds. Money laundering is made up of placement, layering, and integration. Tornado did only one of these (kinda).
    - saalweachter 4y ago
      Now imagine you use those anonymous 10ETH chunks to buy NFTs from yourself, or invest in your own ICO, etc etc etc.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - marcell 4y ago
    It's only money laundering if you are concealing the origins of money from an illegal activity. I can use Torando Cash to conceal the origins of my paycheck, for example to preserve my privacy when transacting with peers.
    - arcticbull 4y ago
      But there's no reason to do that unless you're trying to hide a crime. I'm sympathetic to the free speech argument, but also, if I put up plans for the Kitty Murdulator 9000 whose principally designed to kill kitties, then yeah I'd call that bad. Like sure you could do something else with it I guess, maybe, but it's clearly designed for one thing, and one thing only. Don't want your transactions to be public? Use a bank like a normal person.
      - dannyw 4y ago
        There are heaps of reasons to do that, you could want to use crypto but also want your transactions to not be public. An obvious example would be a software engineer working in web3 that gets a portion of their pay check in a crypto asset.
        arcticbull 4y ago
        That's great and all, but that doesn't change the responsibilities incumbent on a service that transfers value under the law. And that is to ensure their compliance with AML and KYC rules - and best effort verification that sanctioned individuals aren't using it. None of which this particular service did. RIP. I think something like 1/4 of all the transactions on Tornado were laundering lol. Imagine any other business that operated like that. For instance, a bank where 1/4 of tellers are stealing the deposits of customers. At some point, the banking that happens is incidental to the actual business. So like, if you have a legitimate use for the service, and you know that by participating you're facilitating money laundering, you're complicit IMO. And if you don't want to be complicit, go find a different service. This privacy-absolutism is silly though.
        notch656a 4y ago
        Something like 1/4 of worldwide all employment is 'informal' (i.e. typically quasi-illegal or outright illegal).
        4y ago
  - StanislavPetrov 4y ago
    Privacy is not a crime.
- whatever1 4y ago
  That is exactly what money laundries are doing. They are obfuscating the money sources.
  - kodah 4y ago
    I'd really love to hear why you and other commenters are so supportive of transaction tracking. Cash was and is still not very trackable; it's so untrackable that the IRS has to declare what events trigger tracking. Something like Tornado Cash just mixes what it's comparable to a credit card purchase down to being as trackable as cash. I don't see a problem with that. Whether or not criminals use it is really not of concern to me. The FBI, CIA, and NSA can do their jobs just fine without transaction tracing. The fact that their jobs remain hard are also an indicator of freedom. Their jobs have already gotten quite a bit easier with the birth and success of the digital world.
    - whatever1 4y ago
      Nobody asked for money tracking, we just are just against money laundering at scale from the comfort of one’s couch.
      - dannyw 4y ago
        Keeping transactions private is as money laundering as end-to-end-encryption is terrorism communications.
        arcticbull 4y ago
        Not when your use of the service obfuscates criminal flows and the service intentionally avoids meeting its AML/KYC obligations and doing even the tiniest iota to stop criminal use. That's when it switches from a privacy venue to a money-laundering venue and the fact you're there and using it in a legal way is incidental.
      - TakeBlaster16 4y ago
        Again, Tornado Cash is not money laundering. It only provides transaction privacy. Here is the difference: The result of money laundering is clean money: you can deposit it into your bank, pay taxes on it, and buy a Ferrari. That only happens if you can give the IRS a plausible explanation for how you obtained the funds legally. Tornado Cash does not give you this plausible explanation. After using it, you still will not have clean money with an IRS-approved explanation of income. All you gain is privacy from chain analysis. You could launder money through a restaurant or minting a NFT, since those are otherwise legal activities that could plausibly explain ending the day with more money than you started with. But Tornado Cash does not fit that description.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
PostOnce 4y ago
There are other uses for an N95 mask than robbing a bank. Similarly, there are other uses for anonymous money than laundering illegal money, for example, getting an abortion, buying a gift, having a vacation in Las Vegas as a Korean citizen (they get prosecuted for gambling overseas), anonymous donations, etc. The technology to grow food also grows drugs; to teach technology is to teach all its applications, even if it goes unsaid. That doesn't mean we should forbid people learning to grow food in case they might grow drugs, or might launder money.
dimensionc132 4y ago

Money laundering: the concealment of the origins of illegally obtained money, typically by means of transfers involving foreign banks or legitimate businesses. Tornado Cash isn't for laundering money, it's for breaking the chain of public transactions on block explorers. It doesn't make withdrawn fees look "legitimate". Tired of these goal posts getting moved.

asojfdowgh 4y ago
"breaking the chain of public transactions" sounds remarkably similar to "concealment of the origins of" for some reason.
- rattlesnakedave 4y ago
  I deposit 100 ETH to tornado, wait a while, and withdraw in 10 ETH increments. There is still no explanation for the origin of the funds. Money laundering is made up of placement, layering, and integration. Tornado did only one of these (kinda).
  - saalweachter 4y ago
    Now imagine you use those anonymous 10ETH chunks to buy NFTs from yourself, or invest in your own ICO, etc etc etc.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- marcell 4y ago
  It's only money laundering if you are concealing the origins of money from an illegal activity. I can use Torando Cash to conceal the origins of my paycheck, for example to preserve my privacy when transacting with peers.
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    But there's no reason to do that unless you're trying to hide a crime. I'm sympathetic to the free speech argument, but also, if I put up plans for the Kitty Murdulator 9000 whose principally designed to kill kitties, then yeah I'd call that bad. Like sure you could do something else with it I guess, maybe, but it's clearly designed for one thing, and one thing only. Don't want your transactions to be public? Use a bank like a normal person.
    - dannyw 4y ago
      There are heaps of reasons to do that, you could want to use crypto but also want your transactions to not be public. An obvious example would be a software engineer working in web3 that gets a portion of their pay check in a crypto asset.
      - arcticbull 4y ago
        That's great and all, but that doesn't change the responsibilities incumbent on a service that transfers value under the law. And that is to ensure their compliance with AML and KYC rules - and best effort verification that sanctioned individuals aren't using it. None of which this particular service did. RIP. I think something like 1/4 of all the transactions on Tornado were laundering lol. Imagine any other business that operated like that. For instance, a bank where 1/4 of tellers are stealing the deposits of customers. At some point, the banking that happens is incidental to the actual business. So like, if you have a legitimate use for the service, and you know that by participating you're facilitating money laundering, you're complicit IMO. And if you don't want to be complicit, go find a different service. This privacy-absolutism is silly though.
        notch656a 4y ago
        Something like 1/4 of worldwide all employment is 'informal' (i.e. typically quasi-illegal or outright illegal).
        4y ago
- StanislavPetrov 4y ago
  Privacy is not a crime.
whatever1 4y ago
That is exactly what money laundries are doing. They are obfuscating the money sources.
- kodah 4y ago
  I'd really love to hear why you and other commenters are so supportive of transaction tracking. Cash was and is still not very trackable; it's so untrackable that the IRS has to declare what events trigger tracking. Something like Tornado Cash just mixes what it's comparable to a credit card purchase down to being as trackable as cash. I don't see a problem with that. Whether or not criminals use it is really not of concern to me. The FBI, CIA, and NSA can do their jobs just fine without transaction tracing. The fact that their jobs remain hard are also an indicator of freedom. Their jobs have already gotten quite a bit easier with the birth and success of the digital world.
  - whatever1 4y ago
    Nobody asked for money tracking, we just are just against money laundering at scale from the comfort of one’s couch.
    - dannyw 4y ago
      Keeping transactions private is as money laundering as end-to-end-encryption is terrorism communications.
      - arcticbull 4y ago
        Not when your use of the service obfuscates criminal flows and the service intentionally avoids meeting its AML/KYC obligations and doing even the tiniest iota to stop criminal use. That's when it switches from a privacy venue to a money-laundering venue and the fact you're there and using it in a legal way is incidental.
    - TakeBlaster16 4y ago
      Again, Tornado Cash is not money laundering. It only provides transaction privacy. Here is the difference: The result of money laundering is clean money: you can deposit it into your bank, pay taxes on it, and buy a Ferrari. That only happens if you can give the IRS a plausible explanation for how you obtained the funds legally. Tornado Cash does not give you this plausible explanation. After using it, you still will not have clean money with an IRS-approved explanation of income. All you gain is privacy from chain analysis. You could launder money through a restaurant or minting a NFT, since those are otherwise legal activities that could plausibly explain ending the day with more money than you started with. But Tornado Cash does not fit that description.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

PostOnce 4y ago

There are other uses for an N95 mask than robbing a bank. Similarly, there are other uses for anonymous money than laundering illegal money, for example, getting an abortion, buying a gift, having a vacation in Las Vegas as a Korean citizen (they get prosecuted for gambling overseas), anonymous donations, etc. The technology to grow food also grows drugs; to teach technology is to teach all its applications, even if it goes unsaid. That doesn't mean we should forbid people learning to grow food in case they might grow drugs, or might launder money.

dimensionc132 4y ago