5 ms·

I don't know if you're POC or not, but for some of us, this is a personal safety issue and also, it just kind of sucks to feel under siege in society all the ti

I don't know if you're POC or not, but for some of us, this is a personal safety issue and also, it just kind of sucks to feel under siege in society all the time. To be sure, I have lived in places in the rural U.S., and not all of them are bad. There are places where the folks seem to vote for a hateful candidate, but when you meet them, it's actually not what it chalked up to be. And then there are other places. It's not as simple as rural vs. urban either. I would rather live in parts of rural California than in most East Coast cities. When I'm in a place full of a hateful side, I will know it, and I will generally avoid returning except on occasion. Also, at some point in your life you will get older. You own't want to deal with that anymore. Anyone thinking otherwise is kidding themselves. It'll be fun and games until you're the elderly Asian person whose skull has been bashed in. When you're young and feeling indestructible, cool. One day that will end. Maybe it will be the passing of a relative, or welcoming someone to the family. The day will come when your priorities change. In all, it's not our jobs to spend our lives being the canary in the coal mine. There's this idea of individualism in the West, yes? We need to go where we can grow, or at the least be safe to try.

deepdriver 4y ago
>It'll be fun and games until you're the elderly Asian person whose skull has been bashed in. German and European descendants have essentially nothing to do with this phenomenon. In fact, white elders were the primary targets of brutal rapes, assaults, murders, and home invasions by the same POC criminal groups before the US had a large Asian population. Such violence on the streets and in schools was the primary cause for white flight to the suburbs are rural areas. It was a series of decisions made from the exact perspective you’re describing. This view is generally not taught in US schools but is extensively documented in primary sources, such as “Left Behind in Rosedale:” https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2056992.Left_Behind_In_Rosedale# https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2056992.Left_Behind_In_R... And “Common Ground,” a book about the result of forced busing imposed on communities at literal gunpoint: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Ground_(Lukas_book) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Ground_(Lukas_book) European descendants remain victims in ~90% of interracial crime between these two groups today. Similar number for Asians, similar lack of media attention paid. Bet you never heard of the gang assault and murder of Ee Lee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ee_Lee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ee_Lee
- bergenty 4y ago
  White flight was unadulterated racism. It wasn’t because the black family that moved down the street started being violent. It’s because whites did not want to live on the same street as them. Of course caucasians would be a victim of ~90% of interracial crime, those are the general population demographics in most places that are not urban in the US.
  - deepdriver 4y ago
    The primary historical sources contradict your opinion. Racism was a part of it, certainly. The other part and the reason for much of the racism was excessive violence and crime. Here’s another book from the era which documents this, note the top review: https://www.amazon.com/school-ten-year-destruction-Franklin-Brooklyn/dp/B007FMVAH8 https://www.amazon.com/school-ten-year-destruction-Franklin-... >Of course caucasians would be a victim of ~90% of interracial crime, those are the general population demographics in most places that are not urban in the US. Do you understand that this number includes urban areas?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - jonnybgood 4y ago
      How are you qualifying “primary historical sources”? Nothing in the links you posted indicate these to be official primary historical sources other than you claiming them to be so.
      - deepdriver 4y ago
  - badpun 4y ago
    > Of course caucasians would be a victim of ~90% of interracial crime, those are the general population demographics in most places that are not urban in the US. What does it have to do with anything? Let's simplify and assume interracial crimes only include a white person and a black person (e.g. we're excluding other races to simplify the model). If both races had equal propensity for crimes, the whites (as well as the blacks) would victims of 50% of interracial crimes. Given that whites they were victims of 90% of interracial crimes, it must mean that the other races were the perpetrators of 90% of interracial crimes. The fact that whites are the most populous race does not change anything there.
blueflow 4y ago
Statistically, Germany is safer than the US. By a significant margin in like, all kinds of violence.
- lambdasquirrel 4y ago
  This is true. Now if we were to pick this apart, I will explain to you why I still would have a hard time trusting any statistics, given the things others have said (not just folks commenting on these threads). I grew up in the NYC of the 80's. Then, as now, most of the violent crime against Asians was committed by black folks, as another responder has pointed out (albeit in a way that I find unhelpful). Indeed, until you move up in social class, you will be targeted, as an Asian person, by disadvantaged people from lower social classes (no, they won't just be black, I can say that from personal experience). The emphasis here is on social class. Economic class on its own is not quite good enough. (To go off in a tangent, you have to move up in economic class, and leverage that to move up in social class, which tends to put you in friction with already-established social elites, but like I said, that's another matter, and moving up in social class still makes you relatively safe physically.) Anyway, there has been quite a discrepancy between attacks on Asians in 2020s west coast cities versus NYC. I know this because I still have older relatives on the ground in NYC. There has also been historically much greater discrimination in NYC than west coast cities, e.g. in SF. This is what happens to Asians in general in the U.S., because of the role we'd been slotted as a model minority. So, I don't have to be directly, physically attacked by the majority in order to feel unsafe. What leads to the lack of safety I've experienced is something like the bamboo ceiling, and for me to be part of an economically-advantaged but politically-disadvantaged group, by construction. I would expect to be different, in Germany (and in particular, the AfD parts of East Germany), just as much in the U.S. When I read the history books, I understand that such a situation tends to lead to inevitabilities I'd rather not get into here, when e.g. the economy goes bad – and this would not just be about Germany. It may not be violent today, but there's no telling about tomorrow. With that all said, I will concede to you that Germany would still be safer than the U.S., because all things being equal, if you're stuck in the same social situation but one place is more violent than the other, then you will probably survive in the less-violent place for longer. But it's still not encouraging to compare Germany to the U.S. For me, that's like considering jumping from one pot of hot water into another. This isn't just a debate about statistics. The first and second generations, being recently emigrated, will often frame such things in terms of: should I stay here, or should I move there, when these comparisons are made. Because ultimately, you can talk about statistics and the theory of how it all is, but when you're a canary in the coal mine, "should I move there" is where the buck stops. With that question you're not just debating anymore. You're taking your life in your own hands. To that end, you will ask questions about being different, and being disempowered socially. If they don't get you in this generation, the internalized prejudices will get your kids in the next. Moving to a different place with a totally different culture, where there's a lot fewer people who look like me, and where a party like the AfD has the hold that it does, does not justify itself. If I were my parents, emigrating to the West, and doing it all over again in today's context, Berlin might be an alternative – not Leipzig or Dresden, but that is kind of a moot point for those of us already Westernized in the U.S.

deepdriver 4y ago

>It'll be fun and games until you're the elderly Asian person whose skull has been bashed in. German and European descendants have essentially nothing to do with this phenomenon. In fact, white elders were the primary targets of brutal rapes, assaults, murders, and home invasions by the same POC criminal groups before the US had a large Asian population. Such violence on the streets and in schools was the primary cause for white flight to the suburbs are rural areas. It was a series of decisions made from the exact perspective you’re describing. This view is generally not taught in US schools but is extensively documented in primary sources, such as “Left Behind in Rosedale:” https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2056992.Left_Behind_In_Rosedale# https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2056992.Left_Behind_In_R... And “Common Ground,” a book about the result of forced busing imposed on communities at literal gunpoint: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Ground_(Lukas_book) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Ground_(Lukas_book) European descendants remain victims in ~90% of interracial crime between these two groups today. Similar number for Asians, similar lack of media attention paid. Bet you never heard of the gang assault and murder of Ee Lee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ee_Lee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ee_Lee

bergenty 4y ago
White flight was unadulterated racism. It wasn’t because the black family that moved down the street started being violent. It’s because whites did not want to live on the same street as them. Of course caucasians would be a victim of ~90% of interracial crime, those are the general population demographics in most places that are not urban in the US.
- deepdriver 4y ago
  The primary historical sources contradict your opinion. Racism was a part of it, certainly. The other part and the reason for much of the racism was excessive violence and crime. Here’s another book from the era which documents this, note the top review: https://www.amazon.com/school-ten-year-destruction-Franklin-Brooklyn/dp/B007FMVAH8 https://www.amazon.com/school-ten-year-destruction-Franklin-... >Of course caucasians would be a victim of ~90% of interracial crime, those are the general population demographics in most places that are not urban in the US. Do you understand that this number includes urban areas?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - jonnybgood 4y ago
    How are you qualifying “primary historical sources”? Nothing in the links you posted indicate these to be official primary historical sources other than you claiming them to be so.
    - deepdriver 4y ago
- badpun 4y ago
  > Of course caucasians would be a victim of ~90% of interracial crime, those are the general population demographics in most places that are not urban in the US. What does it have to do with anything? Let's simplify and assume interracial crimes only include a white person and a black person (e.g. we're excluding other races to simplify the model). If both races had equal propensity for crimes, the whites (as well as the blacks) would victims of 50% of interracial crimes. Given that whites they were victims of 90% of interracial crimes, it must mean that the other races were the perpetrators of 90% of interracial crimes. The fact that whites are the most populous race does not change anything there.

blueflow 4y ago

Statistically, Germany is safer than the US. By a significant margin in like, all kinds of violence.

lambdasquirrel 4y ago
This is true. Now if we were to pick this apart, I will explain to you why I still would have a hard time trusting any statistics, given the things others have said (not just folks commenting on these threads). I grew up in the NYC of the 80's. Then, as now, most of the violent crime against Asians was committed by black folks, as another responder has pointed out (albeit in a way that I find unhelpful). Indeed, until you move up in social class, you will be targeted, as an Asian person, by disadvantaged people from lower social classes (no, they won't just be black, I can say that from personal experience). The emphasis here is on social class. Economic class on its own is not quite good enough. (To go off in a tangent, you have to move up in economic class, and leverage that to move up in social class, which tends to put you in friction with already-established social elites, but like I said, that's another matter, and moving up in social class still makes you relatively safe physically.) Anyway, there has been quite a discrepancy between attacks on Asians in 2020s west coast cities versus NYC. I know this because I still have older relatives on the ground in NYC. There has also been historically much greater discrimination in NYC than west coast cities, e.g. in SF. This is what happens to Asians in general in the U.S., because of the role we'd been slotted as a model minority. So, I don't have to be directly, physically attacked by the majority in order to feel unsafe. What leads to the lack of safety I've experienced is something like the bamboo ceiling, and for me to be part of an economically-advantaged but politically-disadvantaged group, by construction. I would expect to be different, in Germany (and in particular, the AfD parts of East Germany), just as much in the U.S. When I read the history books, I understand that such a situation tends to lead to inevitabilities I'd rather not get into here, when e.g. the economy goes bad – and this would not just be about Germany. It may not be violent today, but there's no telling about tomorrow. With that all said, I will concede to you that Germany would still be safer than the U.S., because all things being equal, if you're stuck in the same social situation but one place is more violent than the other, then you will probably survive in the less-violent place for longer. But it's still not encouraging to compare Germany to the U.S. For me, that's like considering jumping from one pot of hot water into another. This isn't just a debate about statistics. The first and second generations, being recently emigrated, will often frame such things in terms of: should I stay here, or should I move there, when these comparisons are made. Because ultimately, you can talk about statistics and the theory of how it all is, but when you're a canary in the coal mine, "should I move there" is where the buck stops. With that question you're not just debating anymore. You're taking your life in your own hands. To that end, you will ask questions about being different, and being disempowered socially. If they don't get you in this generation, the internalized prejudices will get your kids in the next. Moving to a different place with a totally different culture, where there's a lot fewer people who look like me, and where a party like the AfD has the hold that it does, does not justify itself. If I were my parents, emigrating to the West, and doing it all over again in today's context, Berlin might be an alternative – not Leipzig or Dresden, but that is kind of a moot point for those of us already Westernized in the U.S.